Once a bad designer, always a bad designer?

[HeroLinik]

This topic was floating around on Knux's forum before the forum got deleted, so I should bring this up here by reposting it.

So you know that a lot of users here have started out bad. A lot of first episodes (mine included) often feature a lot of cut-offs, clash, serious lack of BGOs and coins, and just ordinary bad design such as long flat expanses of land.

But when you start comparing it to episodes like Chad's SMSE and reghrhre's LFFTMK, it seems that they were never a bad designer to start out with. reghrhre's case is obvious because he was an SMW hacker before he came to the SMBX community, but for Chad's case, it actually was his first and only episode so far, and yet the design is absolutely superb. Well you could argue that it actually started out very badly, but the screenshots don't seem to reveal this at all, and that he secretly edited it to make it look better.

But when you put that into perspective, I still think that I have to match my level design to those of elite designers like Darkonius, Sux, Kyo and the two listed above in order to get my project accepted by the community mainly due to how high the bar is for a "good" level nowadays, and that if you make just one flaw, such as a level that looks pretty flat according to one person, but really good to another, it's automatically rejected by everyone and no-one plays it. On the designer's side, it could be their guilty consciences telling them about how bad their levels were, and their levels are going to still remain bad because they still remember their very first level, which is dismally awful when you compare it to levels you make now.

So, long story short, do you think that if you start out as a bad designer, you will always remain a bad designer? Do you think people should design levels based on their own ability and should not be forced to match those of elites?

Discuss.

[zlaker]

I once started out to be a shitty level designer. I remember posting one of my first levels I've ever made and it got into The Trash Can, Rainbowblock Way. I've only gotten 1 level into the Pretty Good (Mushroom Mayhem) and two levels into The Best (my CC7 entry Cloudtop Castlewalls and my CC8 level Subcon Snowland). I sound like an arrogant right now inb4 downreps will storm in, but great level designers like sezixor, Shinbison-Kof, Sux and SuperMario7 does consider me as a great level designer. So I wouldn't say you will remain as a bad level designer. It sometimes depends on how creative you can get.

[Marina]

Well, it's a thing of practice, like everything in life. If you want to make better levels, you need to get ideas, be creative, make original stuff. That's why I almost always exclusively use my own gfx for levels. It's not that I think the others are not amazing, but I just like to prefer to go after my own style. Always try to be unique and come up with something new, and if you can't think of something new try improving your old ideas. If you don't try to improve, of course you won't get better.

[HeroLinik]

Well, it's a thing of practice, like everything in life. If you want to make better levels, you need to get ideas, be creative, make original stuff. That's why I almost always exclusively use my own gfx for levels. It's not that I think the others are not amazing, but I just like to prefer to go after my own style. Always try to be unique and come up with something new, and if you can't think of something new try improving your old ideas. If you don't try to improve, of course you won't get better.

The problem with gimmicks is that a lot of them have already been taken. You think you've perfected a new gimmick, and you submit it as part of a level as a contest entry, and guess what? The judges say something about some level which you don't even know about using the same gimmick. It actually seems unfair that you didn't know the gimmick was already being used, and you deserve to be in a higher tier than where you were placed.

[zlaker]

Well reused isn't exactly a bad thig. I reused two gimmicks from The Invasion in Subcon Snowland and all of the judges seemed to have no problem with them. In fact Emral thought they were the one who mostly who stood out compared to the Subspace gimmick I used.

[YokoAnashiwa]

You can't get great at something without practice. Some people started off badly, but they get better over time. They learn the mistakes in their previous attempts and tend to fix them, eventually they'll make a great level which will be worth playing. You don't have to make levels similar to "elite" people, people should do what they can do. If they have any mistakes, like I said, they'll correct them and avoid doing them. There are great level designers, but I do not think new people should try being the same as the other level designers. Everyone has their own style of designing, let people do what they can do best.~

[RudeGuy]

So, long story short, do you think that if you start out as a bad designer, you will always remain a bad designer?

Many good level designers start out with shitty levels and then started to make good ones.

Do you think people should design levels based on their own ability and should not be forced to match those of elites?

Yes, of course. Just be creative.

Well, it's a thing of practice, like everything in life. If you want to make better levels, you need to get ideas, be creative, make original stuff. That's why I almost always exclusively use my own gfx for levels. It's not that I think the others are not amazing, but I just like to prefer to go after my own style. Always try to be unique and come up with something new, and if you can't think of something new try improving your old ideas. If you don't try to improve, of course you won't get better.

The problem with gimmicks is that a lot of them have already been taken. You think you've perfected a new gimmick, and you submit it as part of a level as a contest entry, and guess what? The judges say something about some level which you don't even know about using the same gimmick. It actually seems unfair that you didn't know the gimmick was already being used, and you deserve to be in a higher tier than where you were placed.

Old gimmicks too are good for levels, you don't have to think to a perfectly new one

Also, if this discussion turns into here's how it was my first level, then here: <RudeGuy> The first level I ever made was in 2012 (I guess) it had a very bad level design, bad NPC placement andn other things I don't remember

[HeroLinik]

The idea around having to match the style of elite level designers, in my case, seems to stem from when I was on FallingSnow's SMBX forum and I posted The Potion Plight (which has sadly been cancelled completely because I'm now doing the TGCA Remake, and it will never be revived). I was a complete noob at SMBX level design back then so most of my level screenshots were horribly bland and had absolutely no custom graphics whatsoever. Unfortunately, I got an extremely rudely negative comment from Joey saying that my project was just awful, and that all episodes had to use custom graphics. He then went on to say only the best episodes can pull off without CGFX, but he was essentially saying that I sucked at SMBX level design and a complete dumbass. Absolutely no positive feedback was given, and I'm not trying to bash you, Joey - I'm just illustrating an example.

If I reposted the same thing on this forum, I wouldn't be met by the same thing, but I would actually get a bit of praise saying it looks good for a first project, but just ways to improve it, not in the extremely rude manner that Joey posted on FallingSnow's forum. It was also Joey's comment that made me scared to join Knux's forum or NSMBX and post the project there, because I thought that I was going to get the same kind of criticism. But now, it seems that any kind of comment like Joey's would earn a warning or a telling-off from a staff member.

[Marina]

Well, it's a thing of practice, like everything in life. If you want to make better levels, you need to get ideas, be creative, make original stuff. That's why I almost always exclusively use my own gfx for levels. It's not that I think the others are not amazing, but I just like to prefer to go after my own style. Always try to be unique and come up with something new, and if you can't think of something new try improving your old ideas. If you don't try to improve, of course you won't get better.

The problem with gimmicks is that a lot of them have already been taken. You think you've perfected a new gimmick, and you submit it as part of a level as a contest entry, and guess what? The judges say something about some level which you don't even know about using the same gimmick. It actually seems unfair that you didn't know the gimmick was already being used, and you deserve to be in a higher tier than where you were placed.

I wasn't even talking about gimmicks. And if you really will, anything can be a gimmick. Not everything has to influence gameplay, try to do something fancy, add details to your level, secrets, eastereggs, all that stuff. but i swear if i see one more goddamn frozen reference from you im gonna Its not all about gimmicks, just as much as it's not all about cgfx. Just try to make levels that are enjoyable and fun, dont matter how you do it, you just have to be creative with what you do.

[HeroLinik]

If the gimmick has only been used once, and it was used in a level that was released something like two years ago that's it been forgotten, and someone reuses the same gimmick in a level now, would it be considered a fresh idea and give it a ticket to at least Pretty Good?

[zlaker]

If the gimmick has only been used once, and it was used in a level that was released something like two years ago that's it been forgotten, and someone reuses the same gimmick in a level now, would it be considered a fresh idea and give it a ticket to at least Pretty Good?

I reused two gimmicks from The Invasion in Subcon Snowland and all of the judges seemed to have no problem with them. In fact Emral thought they were the one who mostly who stood out compared to the Subspace gimmick I used.

[HeroLinik]

If the gimmick has only been used once, and it was used in a level that was released something like two years ago that's it been forgotten, and someone reuses the same gimmick in a level now, would it be considered a fresh idea and give it a ticket to at least Pretty Good?

I reused two gimmicks from The Invasion in Subcon Snowland and all of the judges seemed to have no problem with them. In fact Emral thought they were the one who mostly who stood out compared to the Subspace gimmick I used.

Thanks for bringing that up - I didn't notice that post. Also, who thinks the same as me in that if you make an episode and only one person points it out as bad, it's automatically rejected by everyone and no-one will ever play it?

[RudeGuy]

Also, who thinks the same as me in that if you make an episode and only one person points it out as bad, it's automatically rejected by everyone and no-one will ever play it?

So far, I haven't seen that when someone says that an episode is bad, no one plays it. Don't think it still happens.

[silent_]

I haven't made a long post in a while; I feel like I need to make one.

When I first started making levels back in 2009, I was just a kid, and couldn't make shit. I didn't even know how to extend boundaries at the time or add custom graphics/music, and I just worked with what I had (default music, default graphics, and one screen levels (you have to remember I had no idea how to extend boundaries at the time)). I remember the first level I ever played was from some SMBX site I couldn't remember anything about (it wasn't a forum), and it was this well-designed space level with a weird alien-type thingy replacing Wart at the end. I was fascinated by it, and was nothing more was jealous since I felt that compared to this, I was a horrible level designer. But then, I discovered some SMBX tutorials on YouTube, and watched them and spent hours a day taking in information. I remember I just learned how to use proper warps, and then I remembered I learned how to use custom music. But I still didn't know how to use custom graphics, and it was too complex for me at the time. Eventually, though, I found this really good an thorough tutorial on how to use custom graphics, and I took it in carefully, and then finally figured out how to use custom graphics. This was when I really started to design; the first level I ever made with custom graphics, custom music, extended boundaries, and some effort, was called Good Grassland or something, and it was really shitty and short, and it had lots of cut-off and had not one background object. I never submitted it to a forum, because I wasn't even aware the SMBX forums existed at the time. Nevertheless, I continued to make levels, until I stumbled upon Cloud's Forum: A place to submit my levels.

When I first joined Cloud's Forum, you are probably all aware that I was immature as a newborn baby, and if you wasn't aware of that, well, you learned something new. Regardless, I was just stupidly immature, but thankfully, Cloud's Forum was rather family-friendly I guess, and I didn't get treated badly. Anyway, to get back on-topic, I remember I submitted a level on Cloud's Forum (I forgot its name) and it got about a two from someone when they reviewed it shortly after I submitted it, and I never replied to that review, since I never knew how to handle constructive criticism at the time and I always remembered downright not acknowledging it; I took it in as a bad thing. Up until SMBX:R, that is; around that time was when I really began to mature up a tiny bit and I also submitted a lot of levels at that time, but I still didn't get good scores on any of the levels I submitted there; I remember the best score I ever got from a level on that forum was about a 6.25 on a linear and classic level I made named "The Showdown". Even though I never fixed the level's bugs, I still took in the constructive criticism rather well, and it helped me from now on to design better.

So, Revived got shut down, and this forum came up, and I've submitted quite a bit of levels here that got mostly 6's or 7's, and I don't think I've ever got a score on a level passed a 7.5 up to date, but I think this'll change after I submit my contest level.

Anyway, in short, no, it's a matter of practice. No one's ever always a bad designer, unless they just ignore criticism, but that's a whole other topic.

[mariogeek2]

Once a bad designer, always a bad designer?

In a sense, yes, a person who starts out as a bad designer, ends up a bad designer. But, they can, with hard work, transform into a good designer.

Allow me to explain:
Before the official SMBX forums, when Knux's forums and NSMBX forums existed, there wasn't a whole lot of new-comers to the SMBX Community. The few new-comers who came onto the forums had a chance to get their project and levels noticed by the general community. Most were quickly able to pick on designing good levels with the help of SMBX veterans or users who just had been there a while. This is evident in the TOB series. In TOB 5, there were some crappy levels, sure, but for the most part, no level felt repititive, and even the joke levels felt like they were designed by somebody with a good amount of experience under their belt. Also, it felt like the community just got better at designing levels as a whole. This is obvious as most of tier 2 of TOB 4 is WAY better than tier 2 of TOB 2.

However, that all changed with the creation of the Official SMBX forums run by Joey and the eventual fall of Knux's forums. With the creation of the Off. SMBX forums, the SMBX community was opened up to the general public and tons of new users joined the forums. Knux killed off his own forums by changing it into a AOK forum, changing it back into a SMBX forum, changing it into a Dr. Who forum, and finally changing it back into a SMBX forum. With tons of new users, the structure of the community drastically changed. No longer was it a close-knit community where new users had a chance to make a name for themselves and maybe, with hard time-consuming work, make a contest winner, but instead, it became an overstuffed area where it's hard for the administrators to handle all the new users, the project forum became overstuffed with solo projects by new users who had little experience and and aspired to make the project a grand adventure, and the projects (by new users with little experience) rarely ever got finished, and when they did, the episode wasn't really that great.

I'll admit, I'm guilty of doing the exact same thing that every new user does when he joins the forum: trying to create a grand adventure episode like Mario Classic with little experience. I had good ideas and good concepts for levels, but with my inexperience, I couldn't translate that into the levels I created. Slowly I got better at level design, mostly by submitting levels into community contest and taking the feedback. There's usually three main ways, I've found, that new users end up:

The Good Designer: The good designer makes levels that range from good to the best. They've definitely got some experience under their belt. Their levels usually end up in tier 2 or higher.

The Forumer: The forumer's focus isn't in designing levels but really just being known on the forums. He/she doesn't make really good levels, just average to good levels. Of course, they'll usually be well known on the forums and open up several topics in several different subforums, such as "General SMBX Discussion" or "Video Games". Their levels usually end up in tier 2 or high tier 1.

The Bad Designer: The bad designer makes level between good to bad levels. Their levels usually end up in tier 1 or tier 2. They eventually leave the forums most of the time.

In my opinion, if you want to end up a good designer and not a bad designer, there's 5 steps I've noticed that have helped me:

1. Before you start designing, start playing. Take mental notes about the design of levels you like and dislike.
2. Study tutorials. Learn about how to make custom gfx and merging backgrounds and stuff like that.
3. Design levels for 2-3 community contests. Your levels should get progressively better with each contest.
4. Make an episode. After designing levels for 2-3 contests, or when you feel comfortable with your level-designing skills, make an episode. Be warned, though. It should be about 3-10 levels long.
5. Continue making levels and taking criticisms. How well did your episode do? What did people like? What did people dislike? Do you feel more confident making a hub or world map?

That's all I have to say on the matter...for now.

[FanofSMBX]

@Kep: was that Tatanga's Starbase from Talking Time Bros. 2? It was a space station with Tatanga replacing Wart. I think you had to throw junk replacing veggies at him (it was literally junk).

@mariogeek2: lol, "the official SMBX forums coming after Knux and NSMBX". That's part of why no one can get me to go along with that, it's a bit too late to be calling anything official.

On topic, I've gotten better at BGOs, slopes, and stuff (though my first episodes were for Toad and then Link so I couldn't exactly make slopey levels that actually did anything), but my motivation has gotten lower so I've kinda phoned in the last few levels I made in July or August. You know when you place stuff just because you want to lengthen the level, not because you planned it? Yeah.

[Imaynotbehere4long]

But when you start comparing it to episodes like reghrhre's LFFTMK, it seems that they were never a bad designer to start out with.

PFFFFFFFFFT HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

1. Before you start designing, start playing. Take mental notes about the design of levels you like and dislike.

I'd like to add to this: when you do begin to make your level and/or episode, TEST it to make sure everything works. You never know if something won't work the way you think it will, or if there's something you forgot to add.

That may sound obvious, but you would be surprised at how many "completed" levels don't work properly. Or maybe I'm saying that because I played Bowser's Dark Plan recently.

[FanofSMBX]

Okay that's enough with hating LFFTMK. You gotta respect that people like it

[silent_]

@Kep: was that Tatanga's Starbase from Talking Time Bros. 2?

No, it wasn't that. It was some space station level with really cool graphics and catchy music and at the end, there was this boss with a big suction-cup thingy and you threw something at him (but it wasn't veggies I don't believe).

[FanofSMBX]

Tatanga was riding a vacuum cleaner and I think it was SPM music. The Starbase was blue and had "dark matter" that was lava. It's similar to one in Mario Classic.