M17 Host Sign-ups! (Poll Up)

Danny · Postby **Danny** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:16 am

I'm actually not going to vote until the end.

Postby **Julia Pseudo** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:09 am

I voted for PPX's game.

Zeldamaster12 · Postby **Zeldamaster12** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:16 am

I voted for my own because I'm just that much of a rebel.

MacheTheFerret · Postby **MacheTheFerret** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:17 am

Pseudo-dino wrote:I voted for PPX's game.

Thankies :3

Mivixion · Postby **Mivixion** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:39 pm

I like ZM12's game much better than ragont's to be honest.

ragont · Postby **ragont** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:02 pm

Maybe you should vote for him then, haha.

Choco · Postby **Choco** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:41 pm

I did...

at this rate I may or may not be playing M17

Zeldamaster12 · Postby **Zeldamaster12** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:55 pm

Yeah if Ragont wins, I'm not participating. His game is incredibly unbalanced (didn't he even state that?), and doesn't look fun at all.

I think people are only voting for him because, well, he's Ragont. xD

I stand corrected. He evidently made a lot of changes to it since the last time I looked at it. Still, I don't think I'd participate in it.

qig · Postby **qig** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:56 pm

Zeldamaster12 wrote:Yeah if Ragont wins, I'm not participating. His game is incredibly unbalanced (didn't he even state that?), and doesn't look fun at all.

I think people are only voting for him because, well, he's Ragont. xD

and your games literally the same thing as every other mafia game ever with role names switched

Zeldamaster12 · Postby **Zeldamaster12** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:01 pm

qig wrote:
Zeldamaster12 wrote:Yeah if Ragont wins, I'm not participating. His game is incredibly unbalanced (didn't he even state that?), and doesn't look fun at all.

I think people are only voting for him because, well, he's Ragont. xD
and your games literally the same thing as every other mafia game ever with role names switched

Uh, how so? The last game I submitted was the first time I used the Miller role. I don't recall ever using a doctor-type role either. Also, when have I ever made the Mafia head immune to nightkills? I've never used the Manipulator role, same with the Cloaker. I revamped the Agent's ability this game from the last game I submitted, since there's not a Stalker-type role this time around. I've never submitted a Thief role in any of my games but the last one I submitted.

Do I need to say more?

Danny · Postby **Danny** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:04 pm

I think he was saying in general, not just yours.

Zeldamaster12 · Postby **Zeldamaster12** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:06 pm

Well, in that case, I don't like making crazy-gimmick games. I just like making simpler type games that still look enjoyable and balanced. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Mivixion · Postby **Mivixion** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:15 pm

I'll participate either way but I'd rather play ZM's (that's why I voted for him).

I like the "basic" games with not too much randomness going on (even though ragont's isnt too crazy)

underFlo · Postby **underFlo** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:44 am

People pretty much just vote Ragont's game because of the funny roles, and I'm fine with it, actually.

Hyperme · Postby **Hyperme** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:38 am

it's funny that people are complaining about things being balanced when nearly every setup contains a Death Miller. seriously that thing is evil. also you keep calling it Miller despite the fact Miller usually flips town on death.

Choco · Postby **Choco** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:33 am

8bitmushroom wrote:I think he was saying in general, not just yours.

Nope. I'd happily play (almost) any of the other games.

underFlo · Postby **underFlo** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:08 am

Hyperme wrote:it's funny that people are complaining about things being balanced when nearly every setup contains a Death Miller. seriously that thing is evil. also you keep calling it Miller despite the fact Miller usually flips town on death.

How exactly are (Death) Millers imbalanced?

Hyperme · Postby **Hyperme** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:22 am

Nickname wrote:
Hyperme wrote:it's funny that people are complaining about things being balanced when nearly every setup contains a Death Miller. seriously that thing is evil. also you keep calling it Miller despite the fact Miller usually flips town on death.
How exactly are (Death) Millers imbalanced?

Miller is generally okay. While it weakens Cops, once they are lynched, the problem is over. If the Miller is aware of their role, they can also try to avoid investigation. Additionally, certain roles, such as Tracker and Watcher, can help clear them.

Death Miller, however, will always introduce false information. The primary problem here is that the town moves towards Lynch or Lose, while thinking they have moved away from it. This immediately screws with any decision based on risk, including whether to lynch someone. Next, any theories based on the Death Miller's alignment immediately suffer from a Garbage-In-Garbage-Out effect. Town players may now be considered guilty and Mafia players considered innocent. Unless a investigative role can dismantle the problem, another town player will probably die before the Death Miller's effect is muffled. In Open Setups, we also get the fun of second guessing every lynch trying to work out if the person was actually Mafia, or just a Death Miller.

In Closed Setup, things get worse. If the Death Miller is nightkilled, the obvious assumption is that a non-mafia killer exists, since it makes no sense for the Mafia to killer their own members. It also suggests the existence of a protective role or blocking role if there is only one kill. The less obvious assumption is that there is a Bus Driver running around. This immediately opens up a horrifying can of worms no-one wants.

There's also a problem in multi-faction games. Whether you're another Mafia Team, a Serial Killer or a Cult, the biggest threat is always the other anti-town faction. Thinking that a faction is eliminated due to a Death Miller makes them more dangerous, especially for Cults. Of course, the host might see this problem in advance, and 'fix' it by adding Death Millers for each Mafia faction. Once again, this makes things worse.

As for the weird Town flipping Godfather you've got here, that seems to hurt the Mafia as well as the town. It's harder to make the town take 'risks' you know the outcome of when they're probably playing more carefully due to think there are less town people. It might also make other anti-town factions forgo killing town powers in an attempt to find the 'last mafia' if the Godfather dies last.

Finally, there's the problem that if you can't trust the host's flips, can you trust anything else they say publicly?

Postscript: Death Millers who know they are Death Miller are dumb. The optimal play is claim Day 1 and get lynched, as to avoid your role causing problems later.

Role Reference:

Spoiler: show

Mivixion · Postby **Mivixion** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:16 am

Hate to break it to you, but honestly, death Millers are nothing. Look at the SMBX forums Mafia as an example.

If you really think Death Millers are more unbalanced than a bulletproof Seer, you're wrong.

Hyperme · Postby **Hyperme** » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:29 am

Mivixion wrote:Hate to break it to you, but honestly, death Millers are nothing. Look at the SMBX forums Mafia as an example.

If you really think Death Millers are more unbalanced than a bulletproof Seer, you're wrong.

If you start allowing modifiers, you can make anything broken. Death Millers are pretty terrible from the base role.