*Insert title for a controversial topic subject here*

[Kyo]

Radishl stated that this level deserves to be in the second-best section, but not in the best one, which indicates that there's still something he didn't like about it, yet he didn't state what. That's what DarkMatt was asking for. I fail to see the problem with that. I do agree that Dimitris' warning wasn't justified and should have been verbal instead. It was a rather unconstructive post, but doesn't make it worth a warning, unless he has already been verbally warned for constructivity issues before, which I'm unaware of.

[Flying Brick]

Radishl stated that this level deserves to be in the second-best section, but not in the best one, which indicates that there's still something he didn't like about it, yet he didn't state what. That's what DarkMatt was asking for..

Actually:

(...) this level deserves to be moved to the best.

As far as I know, there's no section above 'The Best'.

[silent_]

Holy shit, lots of stuff happened here over night.

You don't know Kyasarin. Don't compare him to people here.

>I was a guest on the original forums but never registered
>The Wayback Machine told me enough about him to conclude that he was pretty much strict and unfair as hell
>You wouldn't know if I knew him anyways

Users are given board warnings because they don't follow the rules. That's what warnings are for.

You're stating unnecessarily obvious facts. And you should get verbal warnings before you get board warnings. Or at least, that's how most forums are IIRC, but this forum just gives automatic board warnings for really minor reasons and it's bad for the community. You don't go from no board warnings to a board warning just like that for posting one simple opinion, or one simple useless post. Now if it was something SERIOUSLY offending the forum rules like pornography, sexual content, or flaming, I'd say otherwise: Give their ass an automatic ban. But one extremely minor offense isn't worthy of a consequence as big as a board warning.

I usually just give a verbal warning for those "really easy to break" rules because see above. If I were enforcing the rules to the letter, I'd be getting a lot more complaints about why they got warned and having to spell it out to them. I like giving benefit of the doubt anyway, and most people tend to straighten up on their first verbal warning.

Pretty much true, but if you're saying you give verbal warnings for those "really easy to break" rules, than how come you warned DPS? You're kind of contradicting your past actions, if that's the right words for it.

I will apologize for the warnings and points brought up in the OP.

Apology accepted. Learning from your mistakes is something a staff member should do and needs to do.

As for punishing for giving an opinion, you might have noticed it's the serious levels forum. Part of that update is getting people to adhere to a standard of feedback. It's part of our road plan to start tightening that up, but rest assured, we should and probably will only give verbal warnings for that scenario.

Even if it's the serious level forum, again, I don't think you should be forced to make constructive comments giving criticism. I mean, I would see why posts like "cool" or "nice" or "terrible" wouldn't be allowed, but a post like "I really like this level" should be permitted, because it's an act of feedback, if that makes any sense. Or in simpler terms, what I'm trying to say is you should be allowed to like a level without thinking anything's wrong with it and without being forced to even write two lines.

Opinions shouldn't have warnings handed out at all since they're opinions. I mean, I know opinions are exiled from the Internet, but they can actually be helpful in having things changed if you want to adhere to the specifications of some people so you can please everyone.

Unless the opinion is flat-out dickish and has no actual personal input, warn on.

That is exactly - or at least one of the reasons why I made this thread. Opinions aren't worthy of a consequence.

Except that's not the problem at all. We would allow any opinion, so long as it's articulate and constructive. If it's not, then it's not allowed.

But does a nonconstructive comment hurt anyone? No. But does saying "cool" or "nice" hurt anyone? Yes, kinda, because it's spammy.

Basically, in the staff's eyes, a nonconstructive comment would be this: "I like this level. It's really cool."

In my eyes, a nonconstructive comment would be this: "Nice", or just in general a one word post.

See the difference? The point I'm trying to make is that the view on a nonconstructive comment is extremely subjective, just like clash. May not seem that way, but it is. And giving someone a consequence for a subjective thing - or an opinion - is wrong. And a bit stupid as well I think.

Y'know, Darkmatt has done worse than give people bullshit warnings (At least he apologized), he also Demoted an LJ by the name of "Krazykat" for somes reasons that I bet are flaming a mod because of his own opinions on a new sub-forum, and also Darkmatt really shouldn't be calling people Immature, I've seen him rudely insult people like supermario7 because Darkmatt hates his level design, which he keep saying over and over again, which a mod shouldn't even be doing, He should be breaking up fights instead of making them. I'll try to give Darkmatt a second chance, but one more fuck up like that can cost him his reputation, I get that being a mod can be hard, but Giving shit warnings and demoting others isn't the right thing to do.

First of all, I already knew all of that stuff. Second of all, bringing up that what-should-be-confidential stuff about Matt demoting krazykat in the public is wrong. Third of all, krazykat didn't get demoted because of an opinion. He got demoted because he didn't do anything as a LJ and as a staff member, he shouldn't have been revealing warnings and confidential stuff to the public. Fourth of all, insulting someone doesn't automatically make you "immature" (but in the first place, was DarkMatt ever insulting anyone? Not directly). Fifth of all, DarkMatt never said he hated SM7's level design. He sort of implied it, but he never said, "HEY YOU, I HATE YOUR LEVEL DESIGN"! Sixth of all, are you really bringing reputation into this? Do you think that's really a 'threat' or whatever you're making it out to be? And your last sentence is basically saying "A STAFF MEMBER SHOULDN'T GIVE WARNINGS AND DEMOTE OTHERS LOL".

Sorry if I sounded like an asshole in that, by the way.

When did this thread turn into a Staff Critism thread? Oh wait, that's what the thread is about. Never mind then.

It's only a staff criticism thread in some ways. In a few instances in the OP and in this thread I've been sticking up for DarkMatt, is that really "staff criticism"?

But I kinda see what you're saying, nonetheless.

because he snooped through the MCP

I know this is completely irrelevant to the thread, but when I was a LJ, I snooped through the MCP a lot and actually made that obvious to the staff, so I don't think that's a reason why krazykat got demoted.

Radishl stated that this level deserves to be in the second-best section, but not in the best one, which indicates that there's still something he didn't like about it, yet he didn't state what. That's what DarkMatt was asking for. I fail to see the problem with that. I do agree that Dimitris' warning wasn't justified and should have been verbal instead. It was a rather unconstructive post, but doesn't make it worth a warning, unless he has already been verbally warned for constructivity issues before, which I'm unaware of.

Radishl actually said that this level deserves to be in The Best section, and even if he said it belongs in Pretty Good or anything like that, it was really useless, even if he was doing his job, to merely ask a member "What was bad about this level?". Actually, it kind of sounds smartassy, even if I know that wasn't DarkMatt's intention. Or just what Flying Brick said.

[Danny]

because he snooped through the MCP

I know this is completely irrelevant to the thread, but when I was a LJ, I snooped through the MCP a lot and actually made that obvious to the staff, so I don't think that's a reason why krazykat got demoted.

As a Level Judge, your job isn't to snoop through the MCP, nor do you have those rights specifically, otherwise it would have been listed in your job description. It isn't your business to know what the moderators do behind the MCP, so just because you have the power to view it doesn't mean you get to use it to your advantage.

[Superiorstar]

just because you have the power to do it doesn't mean you get to use it to your advantage.

That statement just sums up the entire topic in a nutshell. that's exactly what was happening those nights ago.
anyways I have to agree with Kep here, give verbal warnings before you give board warnings.

[SuperMario7]

was DarkMatt ever insulting anyone? Not directly

Yes, he actually did insult me. He called me a sellout several times when I didn't do anything mean or rude to him. I simply stated my opinion on the topic (and that opinion was completely polite), and then DarkMatt started an argument (rudely) combating my points. That wasn't that bad, but it got worse once he started insulting me and badmouthing me to his sidekick on some chat after I responded to his response (and in a lot nicer way than he responded to mine). I don't know why he did that, it was incredibly unnecessary and rude. He seems like the type of person that likes to pick fights. And that's just what DarkMatt did to me, I only know some of the things he did to others. It's not to say DarkMatt doesn't have any redeeming moderator qualities. He's active and can make good posts, he just needs to learn that he can't be incredibly rude, disrespectful, and arrogant like he's been being.

[Kyo]

No offense SM7, but saying "I wasn't being mean to anyone = nobody should be mean to me" is a pretty simple-minded attitude. And DarkMatt did have a point when he called you sellout. In my opinion, an insult is only an insult when it's completely mindless, but there was a point between sellout, so it's only an insult if you consider it one. Though I agree DarkMatt shouldn't have been so persistent. He should have posted his opinion once, then leave. That's how he could have handled this argument maturely.

[silent_]

I'd just like to point out, when did this turn out to be a thread mainly about DarkMatt and why he should/shouldn't be a mod? That wasn't my intention at all when I made this thread. TBH everything negative I said in the OP is things all of the staff members should improve on, not just DarkMatt. Still, I guess discussing him is relevant to the thread, but - shouldn't you be discussing the entire staff team in general?

Anyways:

Yes, he actually did insult me. He called me a sellout several times when I didn't do anything mean or rude to him.

Don't mean to be stupid or anything, but would you really consider that an insult? Still, it was very rude of a moderator to call you that (even if he, quite frankly, was kinda making a point =/) but I don't think a "sellout" would really be considered that much of an insult.

He's active and can make good posts, he just needs to learn that he can't be incredibly rude, disrespectful, and arrogant like he's been being.

Since when was he being arrogant? But I agree with everything else you said.

[Superiorstar]

No offense SM7, but saying "I wasn't being mean to anyone = nobody should be mean to me" is a pretty simple-minded attitude.

I'll have to agree to that. even though SM7 nor Darkmatt apologized to each other.

In my opinion, an insult is only an insult when it's completely mindless.

Yeah, but that's YOUR opinion, an insult can be anything, even a picture, you need to stick to the facts.

Though I agree DarkMatt shouldn't have been so persistent. He should have posted his opinion once, then leave. That's how he could have handled this argument maturely.

Yeah, this is exactly what Koolkat did once, yet he got a ban, board warning and downrep. While I think the ban was a little over the edge, the warning and downrep were what he needed. Darkmatt should be able to express his opinion, but spamming it, Especially Off-topic, wasn't exactly handling it maturely. I think Darkmatt can learn from his mistakes. As we all did once, so maybe we should stop hitting Darkmatt with these annoying post.

[DarkMatt]

Let's explain all the reasons why I shouldn't do more than a call to see the flop:
-This is a giant mess of staff criticism.
-Some of the responses here are very, very long and wordy.
-I don't have the highest of hopes that this criticism will stand if I take the time to deconstruct it.
-Kep, please edit your post to condense your point don't post a different reaction to every single thing said. Seriously, it's getting into "tl;dr" territory.
-Some people are forgetting a PM I sent them about not shitting up threads because they have a beef with me.

I'm gonna say one thing, and this is an absolute in this thread:
-As Kep said, this is about the staff, not me. Next person to complain about me here is getting warned.

[Superiorstar]

This is about the staff, not me. Next person to complain about me here is getting warned.

Nigga Your part of the staff.
OK then, Kley has done fuck all for the community SO far, I'm starting to think he is a Global moderator just for the comics he makes, which present him as a new mod coming back to teh forums. At least, that is my opinion.

[silent_]

This is about the staff, not me. Next person to complain about me here is getting warned.

Nigga Your part of the staff.
OK then, Kley has done fuck all for the community SO far, I'm starting to think he is a Global moderator just for the comics he makes, which present him as a new mod coming back to teh forums. At least, that is my opinion.

>This is not a staff criticism thread; I didn't make it to be one
>He was promoted to a mod months before he started his comics
>Jumping to conclusions won't get you anywhere, either

[Superiorstar]

^
Oh, sorry, You'll have to excuse me for that. Everyone was talking about moderators so I made the assumption.

[Kyo]

In my opinion, an insult is only an insult when it's completely mindless.

Yeah, but that's YOUR opinion, an insult can be anything, even a picture, you need to stick to the facts.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no predefined line as to what counts and what does not count as an insult, so there are no facts to stick to.

[sleepy]

imo the entire staff team could improve on interacting with the community. it'd be nice to have some actual debate topics, but that won't happen until this community matures a bit more.

the admins could maybe listen to the userbase (not just veterans *whistle*) a bit more. its kinda disrespectful to the "new" guy suggesting it when you do that. but then again, new users aren't welcomed that nicely into this community (from my POV, i may be wrong)

[SuperMario7]

No offense SM7, but saying "I wasn't being mean to anyone = nobody should be mean to me" is a pretty simple-minded attitude. And DarkMatt did have a point when he called you sellout. In my opinion, an insult is only an insult when it's completely mindless, but there was a point between sellout, so it's only an insult if you consider it one. Though I agree DarkMatt shouldn't have been so persistent. He should have posted his opinion once, then leave. That's how he could have handled this argument maturely.

I consider an insult to be something directed towards somebody that is mean to be in some way offensive. So yeah maybe it wasn't an insult to you, but I definitely took it as one. "I wasn't being mean to anyone = nobody should be mean to me" is maybe a simplistic approach to this, but I think it makes sense. I don't really see why it's wrong to think that way. And I'm not talking about someone being a little mean, I mean someone taking it pretty far like DarkMatt did.

DarkMatt, just so you know this isn't me complaining about you. My post wasn't meant to do that, I was just responding to Kyo's point.

[MistakesWereMade]

This is about the staff, not me. Next person to complain about me here is getting warned.

Nigga Your part of the staff.
OK then, Kley has done fuck all for the community SO far, I'm starting to think he is a Global moderator just for the comics he makes, which present him as a new mod coming back to teh forums. At least, that is my opinion.

the shit he's done is not visible because we don't have access to the moderator log, maybe he actually does stuff but stays silent

[Shadow Yoshi]

I may or may not respond to the rest of the posts in this thread, but what I'm going to say now is that some of you need to stop acting like you're the voice of reason for this staff. If you're unhappy with the way the staff does things, fine, but I don't promote people that can't do their jobs (and if I do, they get demoted). You just have to accept the fact that there are going to be some things that you might disagree on with the staff - feel free to express these concerns in a civil manner, but the moment you start talking down to the staff as if you know more about doing our jobs than we do is the moment I stop wanting to listen to your criticism.

[silent_]

but what I'm going to say now is that some of you need to stop acting like you're the voice of reason for this staff.

Is that directed towards me in any way? (Not that I care if it is but I'm just curious.)

but I don't promote people that can't do their jobs (and if I do, they get demoted).

I think you need to replace that "can't" with a "don't" because if you demoted those who don't do their job (or don't do their job enough), the staff team would be perfect.

You just have to accept the fact that there are going to be some things that you might disagree on with the staff - feel free to express these concerns in a civil manner, but the moment you start talking down to the staff as if you know more about doing our jobs than we do is the moment I stop wanting to listen to your criticism.

Can I explain something here? Unless it's something like "FUCK YOU JOEY AND YOUR SHITTY STAFF TEAM" without any justification as to why your staff team is shitty, why wouldn't you listen to negative and uncivil criticism? This is like the Projects forum all over again. As long as your criticism is valid, it should be listened to. And yes, you should even listen to criticism if it's said in a way like "oh, I know more about your job than you do!!!".

[Shadow Yoshi]

That post was directed towards multiple people, not just you.

I don't care if criticism is negative, I care if it's uncivil. If you can't present your criticism in a civil manner, then I have no reason to listen to it.