I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

[PixelPest]

I still don't think that idea would be very accurate or efficient. It also doesn't promote people actually playing the level instead of looking at the screenshots or making assumptions as to how good the level will be because of the user who made it.

Sorry. I can't judge levels on my cell phone. And just being stubborn and pushing aside my arguments as rhetorical comments instead of valid ideas as part of my side of the case gets this thread nowhere. There's really no need for improvement on the system. If we could get judges to judge levels more often, so be it. But even if we can't and things are slow moving, none of these systems seem as if they would be as efficient or produce equally good or better results. If it's so much of an issue, maybe you should try to promote people to become Level Judges, a rule system for Level Judges, become a Level Judge yourself, or at least write some unofficial reviews. In the end, I doubt you'll be able to come up with a better system than we have right now that pleases more than your little group of arguers and the Admins

[aero]

I'm not going to waste my time with any of that when there will not be any changes actually made. The admins certainly won't do anything either, and they're an even more useless group than the Level Judges.

Run the poll and let something happen, otherwise there's no point in outlining a better system beyond what I've already explained.

[Artemis008]

I still don't think that idea would be very accurate or efficient. It also doesn't promote people actually playing the level instead of looking at the screenshots or making assumptions as to how good the level will be because of the user who made it.

Sorry. I can't judge levels on my cell phone. And just being stubborn and pushing aside my arguments as rhetorical comments instead of valid ideas as part of my side of the case gets this thread nowhere. There's really no need for improvement on the system. If we could get judges to judge levels more often, so be it. But even if we can't and things are slow moving, none of these systems seem as if they would be as efficient or produce equally good or better results. If it's so much of an issue, maybe you should try to promote people to become Level Judges, a rule system for Level Judges, become a Level Judge yourself, or at least write some unofficial reviews. In the end, I doubt you'll be able to come up with a better system than we have right now that pleases more than your little group of arguers and the Admins

The system definitely works, its just not very efficient. I could never become an LJ myself because I'm not that involved In this site any more. BTW kudos to the LJ's for devoting so much time into this site.

[PixelPest]

Pretty much all you've done in this thread is complain about how useless different groups are and not really care what anyone else says. Do you see how pointless that is? What good would a poll do anyway?

Both of you:

You keep on addressing how inefficient the current system is but all of the ideas you've proposed wouldn't produce better results

[Artemis008]

Pretty much all you've done in this thread is complain about how useless different groups are and not really care what anyone else says. Do you see how pointless that is? What good would a poll do anyway?

Both of you:

You keep on addressing how inefficient the current system is but all of the ideas you've proposed wouldn't produce better results

It's not something I could formulate in a day. I'll come back here after I've looked at all the options.

[aero]

Pretty much all you've done in this thread is complain about how useless different groups are and not really care what anyone else says. Do you see how pointless that is? What good would a poll do anyway?

Both of you:

You keep on addressing how inefficient the current system is but all of the ideas you've proposed wouldn't produce better results

That's because every group on this forum is useless in one way or another, and I don't care what anyone else says unless they agree with me. It is pointless, I know, for any actual change but it does grind the gears a bit with the complacency thing. Also, you don't get to just say "your idea won't work" when all that's been done so far is swatting all alternatives without providing your own ideas for a better system.

[PixelPest]

I don't care what anyone else says unless they agree with me.

This is your issue.

The reason I've been contradicting the poor ideas that have been formulated here and not creating my own is because I believe the current system we have is the system we should stick with

[aero]

Are you seriously suggesting that a system that produces less discussion than the Introductions forum did, is worth sticking with? The one where people get little feedback on their levels, and doesn't have any incentive for people to post levels - y'know the whole point of SMBX? If that's the case I don't see the point in any further replies to you except "run the poll."

[HeroLinik]

If the LJ group were just gotten rid of or re-purposed as "Level Moderators" for everyone to discuss, then all of the problems with the current system (inactivity, poor reviews, vagueness, long waits, inefficiencies, """"""""""real life"""""""""") would be dealt with in one go.

Nope, that would just make it worse. If anyone was in the SMBX community before or during 2012, they may have heard of a group called the Graphics Moderators, that do the same as you're proposing here, but just with approving and moderating graphics, but got removed because it was a useless group that didn't really serve a purpose. If you use that system the Level Judges will become much less effective because regular users will jump up into the fray and do all the reviewing instead, and the system will inevitably serve to kill them off faster than to preserve them. Don't repeat what happened with the Graphics Moderators back then.

[aero]

I'm leaning mostly to getting rid of them. The Level Moderators thing is just to argue down the middle.

[PixelPest]

Are you seriously suggesting that a system that produces less discussion than the Introductions forum did, is worth sticking with? The one where people get little feedback on their levels, and doesn't have any incentive for people to post levels - y'know the whole point of SMBX? If that's the case I don't see the point in any further replies to you except "run the poll."

The current system by no means limits discussion. People discuss their opinions on levels all of the time. How do you think that taking away Level Judges completely would be a good idea? I doubt there would be any more discussion on levels than there is now, so how would that end up working out? The point of having Level Judges is to give feedback and to decide on an appropriate, unbiased score for a level. The system you propose would likely have the same amount of discussion as now, but people would get less feedback on their levels. How is there anything limiting feedback right now as you think? People who are less popular would get no good feedback on their levels and if you leave a bunch of average users to decide on s score, they don't know how to judge a level and what to look for. Taking away Level Judges is a downright awful idea

[aero]

The current system by no means limits discussion. People discuss their opinions on levels all of the time.

Spoiler: show

but people would get less feedback on their levels.

I don't see how that's possible with how bad it is right now.

People who are less popular would get no good feedback on their levels

Spoiler: show

they don't know how to judge a level and what to look for.

Elitism is, again, part of the problem.

[PixelPest]

but people would get less feedback on their levels.

I don't see how that's possible with how bad it is right now.

Things can always get worse and they would. There would be less feedback and the feedback itself wouldn't be nearly as critical and good as it is right now, even if sometimes it takes a while to get it

they don't know how to judge a level and what to look for.

Elitism is, again, part of the problem.

It's not a problem at all, it's the proper way to do things. Are you going to hire an uneducated bum to work at an engineering company to get the job done or someone who's just come out of university and is qualified to complete the job?

[aero]

Elitism shouldn't come from the weakest link of the Level Judge team. You've got nothing to back yourself up so we're done here.

[HeroLinik]

if you leave a bunch of average users to decide on s score, they don't know how to judge a level and what to look for. Taking away Level Judges is a downright awful idea

I can see where you're coming from on that. A lot of people seem to think that custom graphics, slopes, nonlinearity, or even if a famous person made it, would take a level on a one-way trip to The Best.

But you can't just always assume that just because they're a regular user they have no reviewing experience whatsoever and can't review a level. When I started reviewing back in 2012, it was pretty good for its time and I got promoted to Level Judge within a few days. It could turn out that, like me, they turn out to be really good at reviewing. I mean, take this as an example. This user appears to be relatively new, but their reviewing skills are pretty top-notch if you ask me. I can't see why they wouldn't get promoted.

[PixelPest]

Elitism shouldn't come from the weakest link of the Level Judge team. You've got nothing to back yourself up so we're done here.

You just won't accept that I've presented many critical facts throughout your pointless arguing to disprove what you've said, so yes I have much to back myself up with, but yes, this really should have stopped a long time ago since it's pointless arguing with stubborn people who won't admit defeat

You're missing my point though. Yes, there are a few users like that, but are there enough to debate over every single level? No

[Valtteri]

Are you seriously suggesting that a system that produces less discussion than the Introductions forum did, is worth sticking with? The one where people get little feedback on their levels, and doesn't have any incentive for people to post levels - y'know the whole point of SMBX? If that's the case I don't see the point in any further replies to you except "run the poll."

We established the review approval system quite some time ago which undeniably promotes discussion on the levels on the regular user's part. Getting rid of the level judges like you're suggesting probably wouldn't gain new levels much more discussion.

Besides, having regular users do the reviewing freely we'd end up with dozens of levels that get no attention because there would be no guaranteed reviews for every level. With a group dedicated to reviewing every level we won't have that problem.

[aero]

undeniably promotes discussion

A thread typically gets 10 replies or less over the course of weeks and months, and then dies once it's moved. This is just a dumb thing to suggest otherwise.

Besides, having regular users do the reviewing freely we'd end up with dozens of levels that get no attention

Replace regular users with Level Judges and you would be describing the current system, not my way.

With a group dedicated to reviewing every level we won't have that problem.

Welp here we are with that problem and the cognitive dissonance going strong.

Let people discuss levels, and ditch bullshit reviews. It would basically resemble what the Art forum looks like, but with levels instead of drawings.

[Valtteri]

Replace regular users with Level Judges and you would be describing the current system, not my way.

No. You're assuming that "your way" would guarantee every level more attention than what they get now and you're wrong because as I said we already let regular users review levels. Also, every level does at least get a review with the current system because it's the judges' job to address every level. You don't see ancient levels lying on the submission forum still waiting for reviews.

With a group dedicated to reviewing every level we won't have that problem.

Welp here we are with that problem and the cognitive dissonance going strong.

what

[zlaker]

Open up the level forum to more than just Level Judges, that's where. No need to find anyone, no need to have judges, and reviews get done.

Everyone can review a level and get it approved by the LJs, I don't see the problem. Many people just don't have enough interest to do that, however removing the entire group isn't the solution.