Kaizo Level Contest (THAT'S ALL FOLKS!)

[StrikeForcer]

"Its punishing difficulty is just fluff… a way of retaining challenge even though the player has all of these extra-game resources at his disposal...You have to have a particular kind of personality to enjoy re-loading state a thousand times trying to find the one perfect path that will get Mario to the exit in one piece…"

SMBX doesn't have those resources, so making a "kaizo" level in SMBX merely results in a cheap, poorly designed level. That's why I said that it's a bad idea to mimic Kaizo SMW. Playing Mivixion's levels is like playing Kaizo Mario World on a genuine SNES and being expected to be able to beat it. I admit I could have worded my statement a bit better, but you should be able to understand where I was coming from with that statement.

That statement in the article applies moreso with the modern application of Kaizo as a genre which people design Kaizo with the intention of using savestates and engine abuse to beat, which is bad level design. Kaizo Mario World by default can be beaten abeit very hard on a console, but even then it doesn't invalidate the possibility that someone would be using savestates when playing KMW on emulator as it is part of the genre regarding repetition of obstacle patterns, nor that it cant apply to SMBX which it can as Mixivion's examples as posted in the levels forum iirc as well as what ParmaJon mentioned which you may disagree with because you are not judging the levels of theirs by the standards of the genre Kaizo sets.

FINAL EDIT: On that note, why don't we call this contest the Kaizo Contest because it is inheritantly challenge at its very best in design that goes above and beyond the world 8-ish difficulty and is less ambiguous which Im very likely to assume that its the kind of levels you are looking for in this contest.

[Mivixion]

Modern kaizo has sort of branched out to three separate things actually. TAS stuff like pit hacks are good design in their own right but downright terrible for human players. Meanwhile there's still traditional kaizo being made and then there's another genre being designed of levels and games that are designed for humans to beat that are ridiculously hard (see: mario maker kaizo, panga, w/e)

[Imaynotbehere4long]

kaizo can work in smbx. Simply MaGKL was a lot of fun and made in the best way possible to accommodate for smbx.

it doesn't invalidate the possibility that...it cant apply to SMBX which it can as Mixivion's examples as posted in the levels forum iirc

Have you even played Superpowered X? If not, try it out, then get back to me. http://www.smbxgame.com/forums/v ... 32&t=12751

I admit I've been basing my entire definition of Kaizo solely on that level (and a couple Mario Maker levels Mivixion sent me through PM), but if you play it, you can understand why I am so vehemently opposed to kaizo levels. If that level is "good kaizo," no kaizo can be truly good.

That statement in the article applies moreso with the modern application of Kaizo as a genre

Even if it does, that's not what the author intended. If you analyze the grammar, you'll see that the author refers to Kaizo not as a group, but as an individual. He's solely talking about Kaizo Mario World throughout that entire article. He doesn't say "they're emulator games;" he says "it’s an emulator game." "Kaizo Mario World is one of the most misunderstood games ever made, I think...Kaizo is very explicitly a ZSNES game. It’s not a game-game; it’s an emulator game." IT.

If you disagree with what the author wrote, you might want to find a source that agrees with you next time.

you are not judging the levels of theirs by the standards of the genre Kaizo sets.

Because I have standards.

Seriously, try playing Superpowered X and tell me it isn't fraught with poor design decisions. Maybe Kaizo can be good (I haven't seen it), but if it can be good, this is evidence of someone misusing kaizo to try to excuse crappy level design. http://www.smbxgame.com/forums/v ... 32&t=12751

Note that Mivixion says nothing about the level being kaizo in the first post; it wasn't until I called him out on his crappy level when he said "oh, it's supposed to be Kaizo, you just don't understand."

[Mivixion]

Pretty much every level I've posted except "All First Levels are Generic and Boring" is at least slightly kaizo.

[StrikeForcer]

Have you even played Superpowered X? If not, try it out, then get back to me. http://www.smbxgame.com/forums/v ... 32&t=12751

I admit I've been basing my entire definition of Kaizo solely on that level (and a couple Mario Maker levels Mivixion sent me through PM), but if you play it, you can understand why I am so vehemently opposed to kaizo levels. If that level is "good kaizo," no kaizo can be truly good.

Whether or not I played his works or not is irrelevant. Point I was awkwardly trying to make is that the mere existence of Kaizo SMBX levels can work in SMBX, regardless of SMBX lacking the ability to save state. Also on that "is 'good kaizo,' no kaizo can be truly good." is an example of the No True Scotsman Fallacy you just committed.

Even if it does, that's not what the author intended. If you analyze the grammar, you'll see that the author refers to Kaizo not as a group, but as an individual. He's solely talking about Kaizo Mario World throughout that entire article. He doesn't say "they're emulator games;" he says "it’s an emulator game." "Kaizo Mario World is one of the most misunderstood games ever made, I think...Kaizo is very explicitly a ZSNES game. It’s not a game-game; it’s an emulator game." IT.

If you disagree with what the author wrote, you might want to find a source that agrees with you next time.

I don't fully disagree with the author who wrote this. I actually see it to be a rather interesting treatise on the subject of Kaizo getting a bad rep, something you are justifying. But this line of his is one of the few that id think he doesn't fully understand the fact that Kaizo Mario World has been played on console and I recall it can be beaten on console, which the original Asshole Mario videos did use. My post above that you rebutted poorly did try to highlight the diminished fact he has in that statement in his blog article.

Because I have standards.

Seriously, try playing Superpowered X and tell me it isn't fraught with poor design decisions. Maybe Kaizo can be good (I haven't seen it), but if it can be good, this is evidence of someone misusing kaizo to try to excuse crappy level design. http://www.smbxgame.com/forums/v ... 32&t=12751

Note that Mivixion says nothing about the level being kaizo in the first post; it wasn't until I called him out on his crappy level when he said "oh, it's supposed to be Kaizo, you just don't understand."

Once again, Kaizo can be good. I mentioned Banzai Mario World and Super Mario World Remix being "good places to start and which I personally would be finding to be where rules should be on what you may as well be looking for this contest at its absolute hardest for a designer to design their levels for this contest." I recommended those two because they have gotten positive reception in the communities the authors released their hack to and those who played it. Also what ParmaJohn said. I should also mention that if you have standards, you could have just told yourself that Kaizo isn't for you and just moved on from there rather than letting your bias show.

[Mivixion]

I would like a rename to kaizo contest honestly, I suggested that early in preparation.

[Imaynotbehere4long]

I don't fully disagree with the author who wrote this...But this line of his is one of the few that id think he doesn't fully understand the fact that Kaizo Mario World has been played on console and I recall it can be beaten on console

If you believe kaizo is meant to be played without savestates, you should find better sources. Even the "Kaizo Hacking 101" post that I haven't brought up until now says "If it's an easy-Kaizo hack, play it without slowdown and with few savestates." Not no savestates, few savestates, and that's for the easy ones (not to mention it blatantly encourages cheap design decisions).

I'm not saying that you're wrong to think Kaizo can be good (I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt), but if you can't find a source that accurately reflects your opinions (or at least a source that doesn't go against the exact same key part of your argument), perhaps you're the one who misunderstands kaizo, not everyone else.

[PixelPest]

I would like a rename to kaizo contest honestly, I suggested that early in preparation.

I just don't want to limit levels to being Kaizo levels

[Mivixion]

I don't fully disagree with the author who wrote this...But this line of his is one of the few that id think he doesn't fully understand the fact that Kaizo Mario World has been played on console and I recall it can be beaten on console

If you believe kaizo is meant to be played without savestates, you should find better sources. Even the "Kaizo Hacking 101" post that I haven't brought up until now says "If it's an easy-Kaizo hack, play it without slowdown and with few savestates." Not no savestates, few savestates, and that's for the easy ones (not to mention it blatantly encourages cheap design decisions).

I'm not saying that you're wrong to think Kaizo can be good (I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt), but if you can't find a source that accurately reflects your opinions (or at least a source that doesn't go against the exact same key part of your argument), perhaps you're the one who misunderstands kaizo, not everyone else.

Plenty of people run kaizo without savestates. You're the one who's basing their entire opinion of kaizo off of one level you didn't even spend the time to figure out and a video of a level you didn't even play.

[StrikeForcer]

I don't fully disagree with the author who wrote this...But this line of his is one of the few that id think he doesn't fully understand the fact that Kaizo Mario World has been played on console and I recall it can be beaten on console

If you believe kaizo is meant to be played without savestates, you should find better sources. Even the "Kaizo Hacking 101" post that I haven't brought up until now says "If it's an easy-Kaizo hack, play it without slowdown and with few savestates." Not no savestates, few savestates, and that's for the easy ones (not to mention it blatantly encourages cheap design decisions).

I'm not saying that you're wrong to think Kaizo can be good (I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt), but if you can't find a source that accurately reflects your opinions (or at least a source that doesn't go against the exact same key part of your argument), perhaps you're the one who misunderstands kaizo, not everyone else.

That statement on Kaizo Hacking 101 was made in the context of introducing new people to Kaizo and building and testing said Kaizo levels with regards to the fairness of the problem-solving areas and other things that make up an average Kaizo level one would build, not necessarily playing a finished product on console or emulator (now how can you tell me that it "blatanly encourages cheap design decisions" eh?). Keep in mind that using savestates for a particular section doesn't mean that the hack can't be beaten without resorting to the use of em, let alone its use be used to assessing the puzzle before solving it when playing on emulator, notably when testing and then revision if that person doubles as creator. I would agree with you on it being unfair only when one has to use savestates multiple times when one is at the skill level to be reasonably be competent enough to play Kaizo hacks (think of notable people like Panga, worldpeace125, or any given TASer at the most extreme) which then, becomes the problem with the level design and less on the player. Even in Kaizo, there are standards to be practicing good design within that niche genre.

Also just because there is contradictory opinions expressed in those links need not be undermining the argument I put forth as long as the argument I put forth is valid (and hopefully sound). I am reasonably confident that I do not misunderstand what Kaizo is in this discussion.

I just don't want to limit levels to being Kaizo levels

I can understand that but the source of your complaints is how vague your contest became when you broaden the spectrum of levels allowed when challenge generally implies a specific quality but people are more subjective to how they define challenge. Kaizo is less ambiguous of a term on its modern useage as people have more or less partially correct understandings of what it is at the very least and are able to define what traits constitute as Kaizo more easily.

[Imaynotbehere4long]

That statement on Kaizo Hacking 101 was made in the context of introducing new people to Kaizo and building and testing said Kaizo levels with regards to the fairness of the problem-solving areas and other things that make up an average Kaizo level one would build, not necessarily playing a finished product on console or emulator

Exactly, because even among those who play kaizo, playing kaizo savestateless is a niche minority. The only people who play kaizo savestateless are people trying to show off to get views/subscribers.

To be fair, he does mention that some people "tried to make Kaizo hacks that were possible savestate-less in order to speedrun," but were any of those attempts successful or well received? If not, that just hurts your argument even more.

just because there is contradictory opinions expressed in those links need not be undermining the argument I put forth as long as the argument I put forth is valid

Oh man, that's rich! "Just because nobody agrees with me doesn't mean I'm not right about what they think!!" Let me break this down for you:

Your argument: Kaizo can be done in SMBX because certain types of well-received Kaizo aren't meant to be played with savestates.
The article: People give Kaizo a bad rap because they don't realize that you're supposed to use savestates throughout the whole thing.
The Kaizo Hacking 101 post: We take for granted that you're fully intended to use savestates when playing even the easiest Kaizo to the point where it's only worth mentioning it in passing.

Your argument is about a niche group. Your argument can be watertight in every other aspect, but if that niche group doesn't agree with you, your entire argument is invalid.

You won't be able to convince me otherwise until you find a kaizo hack that explicitly says that it is meant to be played without savestates, etc., and it still has positive reception. If you're right, that shouldn't be too hard. Like I said, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you have to work with me, here!

now how can you tell me that it "blatanly encourages cheap design decisions" eh?

Here's a couple that stood out the most for me:

Spoiler: show

G. Quick thinking

One of the things that TAKE used a lot in the original three Kaizo Mario World hacks was a quick reaction section. This means that the player has to react often inhumanly fast to avoid getting trapped or killed. These are best placed at the beginning of a hack to immediately pose a threat to the player. After the first time dying, however, the player can pretty much avoid it any time. These traps are mostly for initial shock and annoyance, and they don't really increase the overall difficulty of a hack.



In this example, you have to run really fast to the right or you get stuck from the mole. After the first death, however, you pretty much know to run right at the start every time.
These kind of traps can create a lot of funny moments (Don't click link if you dislike language).

He says that the only way to avoid them is to react "inhumanly fast" and that the traps are for "initial shock and annoyance," yet he still encourages it! The worst part is that he says "they don't really increase the overall difficulty of a hack" because "After the first time dying, however, the player can pretty much avoid it any time." With that said, why do something that's only there to annoy the player if it has no other impact on the level as a whole (meaning it can be removed without affecting the rest level) and literally just serves to be annoying? That's a clear case of bad level design.

The same also goes for traps at the end of stages. For example, the video he linked to, while it may be funny to watch, is clearly not fun to play because it shows something the player has no chance to react to on his/her first try. On top of that, since it's at the end of the stage, it forces the player to go back and redo the parts he/she got past legit just because of a cheap trap. That's not fun for anyone (even if you are using savestates, it just serves to be annoying, like the beginner's traps).

He did say "These traps are mostly for initial shock and annoyance," but I'd like to see an example where that's not the case.

I have a similar complaint for this:

Flying fish can be fun once in a while, but like munchers and invisible coins, they can get annoying very quickly. Make sure you have actual fun level design in-between these annoying little things.

Make sure you have actual fun level design in-between these annoying little things. ACTUAL FUN. He admits that it's bad design, yet these are all things he encouraged in that post. If that doesn't tell you that he encourages bad level design, I'm not sure what will.

Keep in mind that using savestates for a particular section doesn't mean that the hack can't be beaten without resorting to the use of em

Well, yeah, of course it can be beaten savestateless, just like how pit hacks can also technically be beaten without Tool Assistance; that doesn't mean it was ever intended.

I would agree with you on it being unfair only when one has to use savestates multiple times when one is at the skill level to be reasonably be competent enough to play Kaizo hacks (think of notable people like Panga, worldpeace125, or any given TASer at the most extreme)

Um...you know that TAS stands for "Tool Assisted Speedrun," meaning while they may not be using savestates, they're still using emulator-exclusive benefits like input-recording, rewinding, frame advance, etc., then only recording the finished product. You basically just said "it's only unfair if a machine can't beat it without savestates."

Also, about Panga having skill, this is from the description in his U-Break video: "it took me 39 hours to beat this level." A successful run of U-Break takes less than one minute. That tells me kaizo isn't about skill, but about patience and trial-and-error, which any good level designer can tell you is tedious and not fun. If Kaizo is truly reliant on skill, it shouldn't take the author of a level the hourly equivalent of almost two days to beat his own one minute level. It shouldn't even take one hour, let alone 39, to beat a one minute level. Oh, and before you talk about how this is a kaizo level meant to be beaten without savestates because Mario Maker doesn't support savestates, check the comments. If you look in the comments, you'll find few, if any, positive reception; it's all talking about how the level is bad and nobody will want to play it.

By the way, I looked up worldpeace125, and he doesn't explicitly say that he isn't using tool assistance in his videos, so you're probably mistaking cheating for skill again. Even if he did somehow manage to beat those levels without tool assistance, I'm willing to bet he spent a similar amount of time on them as Panga did on U-Break.

[Zyglrox Odyssey]

stuff

Imaynotbehere4long you keep talking about how "kaizo's not meant to be played savestateless" but the original videos of the Kaizo trilogy - the codifiers, if not creators, of the genre you're talking about here - were played without savestates. Dram55 ran Kaizo 1 at a recent GDQ event - I believe he's been working on 2 as well. Isocitration has LPed like three full-blown Kaizo hacks savestateless. 8flight's organised two separate SMBX Kaizo contests on the talkhaus. Panga exists. There is an audience for savestateless kaizo, just because it's a niche of a niche doesn't mean kaizo's illegitimate as a genre in an environment without savestates.

You mention how "kaizo's not about skill, but patience and trial-and-error" - yes, anyone who actually plays and designs kaizo will agree that at that level of difficulty patience becomes a very important part of not just throwing your computer out the nearest three-story window. But again, there's an audience. You're talking about a different genre of Mario level with the standards of a standard Mario level, of course they don't hold up.

You bring up how one post about designing kaizo levels encourages blatantly cheap level design - as if one random dude posting a thing has any authority on an entire genre - when what Mixivion said about the term "kaizo" kinda branching off into multiple interpretations is very much a legitimate thing that has happened. Case in point: please direct my attention to the blatantly cheap design decisions in MECHDRAGON's Icy Mix whatever thingy. Mind you, I'm not arguing this is a shining example of good kaizo level design or anything - I found it too finicky and precise in its approach to difficulty, myself - but you cannot honestly try to claim that is not a kaizo level in a certain sense of the term, one that contradicts that post's apparent "it's gotta have cheap traps for the lulz" slant.

Also, just as an FYI:

The only people who play kaizo savestateless are people trying to show off to get views/subscribers.

Don't try to invalidate people's efforts to play kaizo savestateless as "just being in it for the views." You're talking about people investing anywhere from dozens to thousands of hours grinding out the muscle memory for these kaizo levels, you don't put that much time and energy into something if you don't enjoy it and to insinuate otherwise is absolutely beyond assholish. Think before you speak.

[StrikeForcer]

"To be fair, he does mention that some people "tried to make Kaizo hacks that were possible savestate-less in order to speedrun," but were any of those attempts successful or well received? If not, that just hurts your argument even more." - Imaynotbehere4long

Yes, yes and yes. I mentioned three SMW hacks (Banzai Mario World, original Kaizo Mario World, and Super Mario World Remix) in my previous posts earlier, people who liked those hacks and the genre, and that you have people who do it. See Zyglrox's response above as well.

"You won't be able to convince me otherwise until you find a kaizo hack that explicitly says that it is meant to be played without savestates, etc., and it still has positive reception. If you're right, that shouldn't be too hard. Like I said, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you have to work with me, here!" - Imaynotbehere4long

I mentioned Banzai Mario World to be one of those hacks explicitly advertised as savestateless during its development and creator stuck through it: http://www.smwcentral.net/?p=viewthread&t=76189

"That tells me kaizo isn't about skill, but about patience and trial-and-error, which any good level designer can tell you is tedious and not fun. If Kaizo is truly reliant on skill, it shouldn't take the author of a level the hourly equivalent of almost two days to beat his own one minute level." - Imaynotbehere4long

You are right that the people will agree on the level of patience required to play Kaizo. I wont deny that trial-and-error gameplay is ever present in the genre but for Kaizo, it is not mutually exclusive...not an either this or that dictonomy with skill. BTW U-Break falls under the Pit category of Kaizo at its hardest, which is Kaizo yes, but is a branch of it specifically meant to cater those who would use the engine as his own tool to use to solve the puzzles up to its limits of difficulty and execution moreso than the genre codifier and other hacks that are still Kaizo but lower in difficulty, and it follow the modern interpretation of Kaizo having multiple branches. Also see Zyglrox's response above.

I am willing to move on from this discussion and take it to PM (that is, if you wish to continue) if the other members want to rerail this topic back to its earlier state at this point.

[PixelPest]

I have made critical changes to this contest. Someone brought it to my attention that I really can't satisfy everyone and that I should stop trying to make half-hearted compromises that don't really satisfy either side. I think I have been able to iterate what I wanted to say in the beginning and am sorry to those who are not satisfied, but I feel happy with this now. Also, please stop going off-topic with the discussion about savestates. I really don't see how that relates to this contest. The deadline has also been extended to a month from today

[as303298]

See now this seems much more akin to what you were trying to create.
And I also agree with PP here, stop going off topic. What Nien and I were doing were trying to get Mivy and PP on the same page, not complain about Kaizo itself.

Anything further regarding the original Kaizo's construction and execution need to be kept within PMs, not here.

[Alagirez]

wait so this is an ultimate demon level contest?
I'm scared.... i can't make a kaizo level....
I also never beat any kaizo level D:
I think i will send a classic kaizo level, but idk....

[MECHDRAGON777]

stuff

Imaynotbehere4long you keep talking about how "kaizo's not meant to be played savestateless" but the original videos of the Kaizo trilogy - the codifiers, if not creators, of the genre you're talking about here - were played without savestates. Dram55 ran Kaizo 1 at a recent GDQ event - I believe he's been working on 2 as well. Isocitration has LPed like three full-blown Kaizo hacks savestateless. 8flight's organised two separate SMBX Kaizo contests on the talkhaus. Panga exists. There is an audience for savestateless kaizo, just because it's a niche of a niche doesn't mean kaizo's illegitimate as a genre in an environment without savestates.

You mention how "kaizo's not about skill, but patience and trial-and-error" - yes, anyone who actually plays and designs kaizo will agree that at that level of difficulty patience becomes a very important part of not just throwing your computer out the nearest three-story window. But again, there's an audience. You're talking about a different genre of Mario level with the standards of a standard Mario level, of course they don't hold up.

You bring up how one post about designing kaizo levels encourages blatantly cheap level design - as if one random dude posting a thing has any authority on an entire genre - when what Mixivion said about the term "kaizo" kinda branching off into multiple interpretations is very much a legitimate thing that has happened. Case in point: please direct my attention to the blatantly cheap design decisions in MECHDRAGON's Icy Mix whatever thingy. Mind you, I'm not arguing this is a shining example of good kaizo level design or anything - I found it too finicky and precise in its approach to difficulty, myself - but you cannot honestly try to claim that is not a kaizo level in a certain sense of the term, one that contradicts that post's apparent "it's gotta have cheap traps for the lulz" slant.

Also, just as an FYI:

The only people who play kaizo savestateless are people trying to show off to get views/subscribers.

Don't try to invalidate people's efforts to play kaizo savestateless as "just being in it for the views." You're talking about people investing anywhere from dozens to thousands of hours grinding out the muscle memory for these kaizo levels, you don't put that much time and energy into something if you don't enjoy it and to insinuate otherwise is absolutely beyond assholish. Think before you speak.

Thank you Zyglrox, but that was the easy version. I will admit their are a few cheep deaths in the harder version, and that requires memory. Kaizo does not depend on one person's believe, but branches of it may. My Kaizo level is one branch that does not follow what Imaynotbehere4long claims all Kaizo levels are, mine may be bad, but it still brings up a point. (Thank you).

Zyglrox, why no you participate in this?

[PixelPest]

Okay. Guys. PLEASE stop being hostile as well as talking about things that have nothing to do with this contest. That doesn't just go for talk about savestates but all the other bs on this thread needs to be done now. You should only be posting if you wish to discuss the rules/guidelines of this contest, if you have any questions regarding level submissions, if you want to sign up to participate, etc.

[Mivixion]

So what about the requiring .txts or videos thing?

Also what about the glitch abuse thing? There are some cool glitches that we're cutting off for no reason.

[Nerx]

So what about the requiring .txts or videos thing?

Also what about the glitch abuse thing? There are some cool glitches that we're cutting off for no reason.

What about allowing glitches that aren't really difficult (like block duplication in SMW) if they have some way of explaining them?