Kaizo Level Contest (THAT'S ALL FOLKS!)

[TDK]

Are annoying invisible blocks allowed? I don't mean everywhere, but few of these.

It's allowed, but you should try to make the level fair.

[*]Your level should not be unfair: There is a big difference between difficulty and fairness. Your level will likely not score well if you use poor design elements such as enemy spam, etc. The player should be able to react to an obstacle in time, on their first time playing the level. Judges are by no means required to beat unfair levels.

[ParmaJon]

I'm not too concerned about these specific shenanigans tbh, I'll just make a level and whatever happens happens. If I need to include a guide I'll do that but really I'll just make something and hope scoring is in my favor.

[Mivixion]

Are annoying invisible blocks allowed? I don't mean everywhere, but few of these.

If they enhance the level, sure.


@imnbh4l

Yeah I sorta get that, Superpowered X was just trying to imitate more traditional kaizo stuff

[as303298]

Are annoying invisible blocks allowed? I don't mean everywhere, but few of these.

I say so long as they dont result in cheap deaths, I'd go nuts.
Even better if you put 1-Ups in them that the player would never reach >:3

[Mivixion]

Are annoying invisible blocks allowed? I don't mean everywhere, but few of these.

I say so long as they dont result in cheap deaths, I'd go nuts.
Even better if you put 1-Ups in them that the player would never reach >:3

The best use for invisible blocks is to prevent the player from doing things you don't want them to.

[PixelPest]

Are annoying invisible blocks allowed? I don't mean everywhere, but few of these.

I say so long as they dont result in cheap deaths, I'd go nuts.
Even better if you put 1-Ups in them that the player would never reach >:3

The best use for invisible blocks is to prevent the player from doing things you don't want them to.

If this is the case, then maybe just to be fair to the player, show a dotted outline of the invisible blocks. I sometimes use that kind of idea in my levels

[Mivixion]

Yeah but if you're using them to say stop the player from damage boosting an area or walking over everything with Yoshi or something, there's not really a need to make them visible because the player shouldn't be running into them anyway.

[StrikeForcer]

"You should sumbit a level with more traditional Kaizo and/or hard platforming elements, however World 8 type of stuff isn't the goal here. If you do decide to make a level with Kaizo-like elements, it should not be unfair or use glitches outside of the rules list or you will most likely be penalized for doing so. Although gameplay will be focused on in the judges’ reviews, your level should still be visually appealing and not have poor design"

You still haven't addressed the concerns asnumbers and co. had stated on getting into any real depth as per what you mean by Kaizo and/or hard platforming elements in the rules. I totally get that this nature of contest is aimed at designers to design levels with the expectation of players already knowing at the very least, mastered the tropes (may or may not include use of engine exploits) at the very most that are employed in the official games and SMBX but there needs be hard and objective lines to be defined on whenever or not the lines are crossed between what is actual challenge and what is unfair in the context for this contest. Right now it is not clear (as in, there is no explicit rubric) on what you will judge a level for other than vague statements in the OP that offer little direction in what someone should precisely be designing for in this contest that makes it very open for interpretation (really, rules should not be that open, it needs to be closed and very-well defined) since people do have differing ideas on what is challenging and what is unfair.

Also food for thought - Modern useage of Kaizo in Mario platformers need not be playing fair with the normal meta established by Nintendo, as such there are different rules and practices that have been agreed on before and I would suggest studying that. SMW hacks like JUMP (post-game), Super Mario World Remix, Banzai Mario World (Kaizo: Light) are good places to start and which I personally would be finding to be where rules should be on what you may as well be looking for this contest at its absolute hardest for a designer to design their levels for this contest.

[Imaynotbehere4long]

The best use for invisible blocks is to prevent the player from doing things you don't want them to.

Or you could, you know, make it so the player can't do those things without the use of invisible blocks; that way, players can easily see that they aren't able to do those things and won't bother trying. Using invisible blocks would still imply that players can do those things, and if they attempt to do them, it could result in a cheap death, a lá Superpowered X.

@imnbh4l

Yeah I sorta get that, Superpowered X was just trying to imitate more traditional kaizo stuff

In that case, maybe it would be best to stay away from "traditional kaizo stuff" since it's inherently unfair. Even Pixelpest admitted that Superpowered X wasn't a good example of what he wanted.

You should sumbit a level with more traditional Kaizo

...I'm not entirely sure you know what you're saying. You should probably stick with "above world 8 difficulty" since kaizo implies unfair/unintuitive level design (as it is a direct reference to Kaizo Mario World 1 and 2, hacks infamous for their cheap deaths).

[diamantico21]

The best use for invisible blocks is to prevent the player from doing things you don't want them to.

Or you could, you know, make it so the player can't do those things without the use of invisible blocks; that way, players can easily see that they aren't able to do those things and won't bother trying. Using invisible blocks would still imply that players can do those things, and if they attempt to do them, it could result in a cheap death, a lá Superpowered X.

or you can simply mark where the blocks are. the playere will still have space to jump but, at the same time, he'll know what to do

[as303298]

The best use for invisible blocks is to prevent the player from doing things you don't want them to.

Or you could, you know, make it so the player can't do those things without the use of invisible blocks; that way, players can easily see that they aren't able to do those things and won't bother trying. Using invisible blocks would still imply that players can do those things, and if they attempt to do them, it could result in a cheap death, a lá Superpowered X.

or you can simply mark where the blocks are. the playere will still have space to jump but, at the same time, he'll know what to do

Whats the point of indicaiting where an invisible block is if there is an outline for it?
Its like the Invisible Boatmobile from SpongeBob having a Neon sign behind it saying "ITS RIGHT HERE!"

[Imaynotbehere4long]

The best use for invisible blocks is to prevent the player from doing things you don't want them to.

Or you could, you know, make it so the player can't do those things without the use of invisible blocks; that way, players can easily see that they aren't able to do those things and won't bother trying. Using invisible blocks would still imply that players can do those things, and if they attempt to do them, it could result in a cheap death, a lá Superpowered X.

or you can simply mark where the blocks are. the playere will still have space to jump but, at the same time, he'll know what to do

My suggestion is easier to implement since it relies on the already-established-workings of normal Mario games and it can be done wherever. With your thing, you'd have to have a conveyance section at the beginning so the player knows what indicates an invisible block, then slowly build up to that point. Otherwise, you risk being unintuitive.

[Mivixion]

some notes about invisible blocks:

-dying to them (while super annoying sometimes) is honestly hilarious imo

-Sometimes there's no way to stop a player from doing something an unintended way besides using invisible blocks. I'm all for any way to make them visible, but I don't want to be able to do your entire level some super cheap way because you didn't block me off from something.

-If I die to an invisible block once I should be able to avoid it the next time I get there.

[RoundPiplup]

I literally made super little progress in like my first 2 days just to figure out what seems unfair to me. And right now it looks nothing near challenging.

[Imaynotbehere4long]

Some notes about Mivixion's notes about invisible blocks:

-dying to them (while super annoying sometimes) is honestly hilarious imo

while super annoying sometimes

super annoying

Avoid doing things that are super annoying. You might be able to get away with something that's just regular annoying (although that's still looked down upon), but it's best to avoid things that are super annoying at all costs.

Sometimes there's no way to stop a player from doing something an unintended way besides using invisible blocks.

I don't believe you. There's always another way, and if you can't find that way, you need to get better at level design.

[Mivixion]

I mean I could tell you there's no way to change SMBX's core physics as well and that I need to get better at level design to design that.

I'm definitely not super pro-invisible blocks. I use them sometimes but I used absolutely none in sHell or my newest level. In fact most of the time I don't. However in some scenarios they are the easiest and fastest option. And I'm also totally pro fair design, I never said I don't like normal stuff.

I just prefer to challenge myself with more visually interesting mechanics. And I am trying to get better at fairness, but honestly I love trolling people with invisible blocks.

If there's an invisible block that's there to stop someone from damage boosting or something they shouldn't be hitting it anyway so I don't see why that's a big deal. Sure you could require the powerup later but what if they're not supposed to have it in the first place? There are totally ways around it but you shouldn't go around saying I should "get better at level design." If it's the easiest way and it doesn't affect the experience at all, I as the designer shouldn't have to jump through hoops to give the player things. I mean if I use invisible blocks in the future I probably will put outlines or whatever but honestly fairness isn't always the most important thing. If we're being totally honest, it's a game and if it's fun for the player (who won't always be uptight and nitpicky and salty about every death. sure there are those people but they're no fun to be around, take my word for it)

[PixelPest]

Okay. Here's my say on invisible blocks: using them to kill the player (putting them over holes, near NPCs, etc.) is bad. Using them to block off a passage, fine. Using them as part of a gimmick that involves the player knowing that they are there and needing to use them for some type of purpose, with some indicator of their position, also fine. Randomly placed invisible blocks just for the hell of it, NO

[MistakesWereMade]

I'm just going to casually break down these rules, as some of them are vague as fuck

• Your level must be difficult or at least include some challenging aspects.

You already start off by being super vague. Challenge is dependant on the player's skill level, i have no way of knowing that judges (asides maybe mechadragon) aren't dogshit at the game.

Even if they're all at the same mechanical skill level (which is very unlikely), difficulty can also be based on the player's ability to figure out the trial before proceeding. So even if the player is some speeddemon who can dodge every enemy in sight, even if the indications are really obvious, the player can manage to not figure out what the fuck is going on at a tricky part. You could try to argue that it's the designer's fault for making something cryptic as fuck, but i remember seeing a review about one of wrath's levels, where they complain about a jump being a "leap of faith", even though there's literally an arrow made out of blocks on the wall pointing at the pit they have to jump in.

[*]Your level must be completable and finished.

Completable is also vague. For example, Battletoads is actually impossible if you're just not good enough, but the game is definitely beatable.

[*]Your level may not force the player to exploit any of SMBX’s glitches other than the following: (1) Ducking into a space shorter than the player, resulting in the player moving through a wall (2) Spinjumping into a player block resulting in the player to continue to spinjump, even if the new character usually cannot (3) Spinjumping while falling and holding an object with playerblocktop = 1, resulting in the player being able to jump again.

This choice of glitches also makes it so levels can't fully take advantage of the game's features. The entire game is filled with glitches, you're forcing a very specific design style by only limiting the designers to the use of 3 glitches.

[*]Your level should not be unfair: There is a big difference between difficulty and fairness. Your level will likely not score well if you use poor design elements such as enemy spam, etc. The player should be able to react to an obstacle in time, on their first time playing the level. Judges are by no means required to beat unfair levels.

Vagueness strikes back once again. A player being able to react to something is purely dependant on their brain's capability to process whatever they just saw. The thing i mentioned where there's no guarantee the judges aren't dogshit becomes more valid at this point.

Fairness is also very subjective. For instance, i consider ninja gaiden fair, as i know most of the mechanics and can react to shit most of the time. Qig does not find it fair because the game is programmed in a manner there's a constant shitstorm of enemies on the screen all the time. Both perceptions are valid.

Also

The player should be able to react to an obstacle in time, on their first time playing the level

Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to point out mivixion's mountain of contradictions!

This rule is actually contradicted by one of mivixion's points on invisible blocks:

-If I die to an invisible block once I should be able to avoid it the next time I get there.

This is where the judges start to look like they're on different pages. You want people to be able to react to obstacles the first time on playing the level, but then a judge thinks dying to something you didn't expect is fine as long as you can properly execute trial and error?

It gets worse.

We aren't exactly aiming for totally fair levels, but we want something that's enjoyable (to the judges).

The rules indicate that the levels should be fair, but a judge isn't particularly aiming for that. SeemsGood

Also, another thing that becomes confusing is that you want something that's enjoyable to the judges. It is very uncommon to find people who find hard gameplay fun, and even then their perceptions are still different. So as long as i know what the judges enjoy instead of optimizing the contest's guidelines in my design, i have a better chance of winning.

We shouldn't be rating the levels' quality by difficulty. The difficulty and how enjoyable the level are are two totally different things.

I was actually about to outright flame you for this statement, but then i looked back to the main thread:

The Process:
After the contest opens, you will have one month to sign up and later submit your level; make sure it abides to the rules presented below. After the submission period ends, the judges will have two weeks to submit their reviews. Reviews will include a score from zero to 10 out of 10 as well as a difficulty rating out of 20 that will not directly influence the level's score.

If the difficulty rating is going to be independant of the overall rating, then what is the point of this contest?. This leaves too much room for avoiding the guidelines, since, as i've stated before, it's a lot easier to please the judges by their standards instead of making the best out of the guidelines.

I'd definitely say you should integrate the challenge factor in the overall score of levels participating in a challenge contest. Even if you don't do that, you've still got a lot more to define. Your current draft is vague as fuck.

[PixelPest]

Thanks Nien. I also should say that I don't agree with everything that Mivixion says

[as303298]

Yeah I have to say I am with PP on this. Mivy looks like he only wants to side with "just 'cus I can, we all can" sort of mentality.
To not rate a level based on difficulty is just a blatant disregard of the purpose of this contest. <- Just an example of his comments.

And, I swear to god you guys:
Difficulty =/= Unfair

If something is unfair, that doesn't mean it is difficult. It means it is impossible and unfair.