Super Mario Bros. X Forums

Hello everyone!

As the year is wrapping up and we're waiting for Chocolate to conclude, it's time to look forward and think about what events we want to see in the future. The current contest management team has existed for a good couple years now and we've tried all kinds of different things, from Mysteries to Sciences, from Dioramas to World maps. And while there's always more room to innovate, with so many genres now being established, I think it's time to make an effort to strike a balance.

But before that, some other survey questions based on recent conversations among the event manager team. Feel free to leave a reply to any you have an opinion on. Don't feel pressured to reply to all of them.

1. Level contest submission period length
Presently, level contests largely fall into the 4-8 week timespan of submission periods. That's in part set this high to give everyone a chance to contribute to this once-a-year event, regardless of exam periods, holiday obligations or otherwise. On the flipside, this also limits the variety of events because 1/6 of the year is automatically eaten up by a chocolate contest, and people also have other things to do!
We considered lowering the length of submission periods significantly and compromising the loss of time for high-scope endeavors in other ways. In chocolate contests specifically, we often see a lot of people try to go all out with lua to create a playable, boss, or otherwise ridiculously awesome gameplay system that the community has never seen before. If, say, vanilla contest submission period was 2 weeks and chocolate was 3 weeks... then we get to topic 2.

2. Subdividing vanilla and chocolate contests to target different styles of design
The chocolate contest in particular is in a very strange position right now I think, where due to the long length it lends itself to overscoping your design, and the most ambitious ideas end up getting half-baked results because deadlines just kinda sneak up on you. People are prone to doubling the challenge they take on, by trying to create great systems and then also great levels for those great systems. It's very ambitious and impressive, but I wonder if the current format is.. ideal for this?
My idea is twofold.
First, with shorter contests, themes for contests are sorta encouraged to keep things varied. This isn't a must, and generally themes are a mixed bag for people, but my idea isn't to enforce them, but to suggest them as an option for inspiration. Game jams on itch.io often have an optional theme that'll be there for those who want it, but can be ignored by anyone who doesn't like it. So if we had a winter vanilla contest with the theme of friction, and a summer vanilla contest with the theme of melt (as two themes I just lazily wrote down while writing up this sentence. they wouldn't have to be seasonally inspired), then we can decouple the contests from the year while giving them some character for those who want it.
Second, coding has become a major part of the chocolate flavoured contests that we host and up to now, we have evaluated the quality of this code when attached to the quality of the level that one is trying to build in the same timeframe. But really, while a level can be reasonably finished in a few days, a whole coding system can explode in scope dramatically. This mostly affects player mechanics and bosses. I'd like to introduce the concept of a backburner event to you (name pending):
The idea behind the backburner event is that it has a long backburner period, and a short submission period. Say if I were to announce "boss contest happens now" on january 1st, the submissions would NOT open until march 31st, and then on march 31 the judges are announced and submissions open for a few weeks. The expectation is that you've spent some of those 3 months idly working away at a system/boss you really wanna make and then put it to use making a level. It's fair game to finish everything before january is over. It's also fair game to not start until april. The reason for the submission period cutoff after so much time is for one to announce the final stretch, and for two to have a temporal marker by which people should reasonably be "done" with the prepwork.
The current grand chocolate contest cloud thus become a backburner event, giving people a few months to come up with their ideas, do prototyping and settle on something they like, and then three weeks after that period as a mad rush to finish the submission. Importantly, other contests and events would happen during the backburner period, and you are not expected to commit too much time to prep work. It's just there to give people the chance to work on things when time permits them. You'd still have to show up in april to submit.

3. Judging
If we host more events, we'll need more judges. Questionmark? This is a more open topic. What are everyone's thoughts on the current ways judging is handled? Do you enjoy essay-like reviews, shorter reviews? Are you fine with contests judged by one or two people, or do you want no less than 4? Science contest! What about that system of community judging? Let me know your thoughts!

4. Dynamic judging categories
This is something I tried in the vanilla contest. What did you think of them? To recap, this was a system where every judge judged the levels on different merits based on what they thought most accurately reflects the level's goal.
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I'm done babbling on about boring ideas on how to change contests. It's time to introduce some of the contest types we've had over the years, and some new ones, and you can leave comments on which you'd like to see in the coming year.

A. Chocolate Contest (classic)
This is the chocolate contest in the same format as we've hosted it all the time. It can be hosted as a regular contest, or as a backburner contest. Personally, this is the one I am most excited for for a backburner contest format, but I would be hesitant to do it before having tried the idea on another guinea pig.

B. Vanilla Contest (classic)
I tried some wacky shit in the vanilla contest this year. Next year will likely be less weird and strange. With a shorter timeframe and potentially happening twice (no promises), this could be a nice breather contest.

C. Vanillish contest
Probably needs a better name if we bring it back? This is a vanilla contest with allowing config files. I can be persuaded to make this the default going forward. People seem to have had a lot of fun with it.

D. Vanillart contest
People always like to make wacky and fun aesthetics in vanilla contests. This is their playground. Config files are allowed.

E. Chocolart Contest
A mix of vanillart and chocolate, with the goal of making a small diorama using whatever means necessary.

F. Boss design contest (modern)
Use any means necessary to create a fun boss battle. This is a chocolate contest, and it can be a backburner contest. If people are interested in this, I think it would be the ideal guinea pig for the backburner format.

G. Boss design contest (retro)
Darkonius independently hosted this one last time. This is a vanilla contest to create a boss using effectively smbx 1.3 technology, and could be a backburner contest.

H. World map contest
The world map contest was tried this year. How did you like the rules? Is there anything you'd change? Do you want to see another one soon?

I. Prompt contest (like Dioramacon)
Catch-all term for chocolate contests where a specific creative prompt is required to participate. Ideas include enforcing a specific palette, enforcing specific enemy types, or a certain level theme.

J. Science Contest
Beta 5 is now released and there is more potential for jank to be discovered.

K. Turbo Contest
Make a level in one weekend. Quick. Go! Do it!

L. Seasonal tourney
Submit any level you have made in the past 3 months. Levels are judged by the community in a tournament bracket. Winner and runner-up advance to the annual tourney finals at the end of the year to determine the level of the year. Level submissions to this tourney can be any level you made, including for your episode. It just has to be playable as a standalone package.

M. Mystery Contest
The mystery contest as a format is me trying some weird unusual stuff. Whether or not it happens is wholly up to the whims of my stupid contest innovation ideas. I'm just putting it here because people will ask about it otherwise.

N. Hurry Up! Contest
Create a level limited to a 100 second time limit that is beatable from the start and any checkpoint within that time limit

O. Minisode contest
This can be a backburner contest. Create a 3-5 level minisode. Can be done in a vanilla or chocolate format. For a first trial, vanilla might be better. Teams up to 4?

P. Asset extravaganza (Wonderful Holidays event)
An asset creation based event where the goal is to create new things for the community to use. What was your opinion in this last time?

Q. Gamecon
A chocolate contest with the specific goal of making SMBX unrecognizable. Can be a backburner contest.

R. Kaizo Contest
Make a kaizo level, simple as that. Most fun kaizo level wins. We'll never find judges who are up for this but oh well.

S. Comedy Contest
Make a funny level. Not like, reciting jokes at a standup bar funny, but genuinely making the player laugh through the level design. It might be hard to understand...

T. Traditional Contest
Create a level that could reasonably be mistaken for a pre-selected mario game for that contest. So SMW, SMB3, SMB2, etc.

Anyway that's my thoughts enjoy thinking about them for a month byeee

I think...... we should make a contest on who can do the sickest backflip.....
that would epic I think.....






In all seriousness, I think something like a CGFX contest would be nice, sort of like an asset extravanganza but on a smaller, yet more accessible scale to more people as they wouldn't need to worry about the code side of things anymore.


But here's one that I think would be really cool...

How about a Cutscene Contest? Where the goal is to play around with Events/animationPal/etc to make a simple short story that last around 2-3 minutes max? As I think SMBX cutscenes are lowkey an overlooked art(?) personally & a contest dedicated to them could potentially show how good a SMBX cutscene could be.

MrNameless wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 03, 2024 8:04 am

How about a Cutscene Contest? Where the goal is to play around with Events/animationPal/etc to make a simple short story that last around 2-3 minutes max? As I think SMBX cutscenes are lowkey an overlooked art(?) personally & a contest dedicated to them could potentially show how good a SMBX cutscene could be.

I hosted this kind of contest 9 years ago, but it didn't run well and I ended up letting it die haha

Anyway, a Turbo contest would be nice to have, though the contest should be held at the right timing.

I would love to see more modern boss contests, maybe both modern and retro could be held at the same time/same backburner time?

Also also Asset extravaganzas are REALLY awesome too, they encourage the community to create neat things.
Wonderful events helped me to increase my coding speed.

Boss design contest (not retro), Hurry up challenges, and Kaizo challenges come in handy to me. I'm all for these three.

Considering that the long submission period appears to have had no effect on the number of levels submitted to this year's Chocolate Contest, I am completely in favor of shorter deadlines for future events. If anything, and this is merely speculation, I feel like having two entire months to complete a stage may have invited some of the contestants to scopecreep a little? Ness-Wednesday and I at least had some ideas that could not make it into our entry.

As far as backburner events are concerned, I am at least somewhat conflicted. Since the set of rules for the Chocolate Contest has, to my knowledge, not evolved in any noteworthy manner since its inception and there is thus there very little stopping me from submitting a level I made ages ago (at least in theory), that format would lend itself well as a backburner event. With most of the more infrequent contest types, figuring out what I want to make in a relatively short span of time is part of the fun for me. Because of that, I would personally rather not see the boss contests and such become backburner events.

I like judging as it currently is. Generally speaking, I prefer short and condense reviews over longer essays, but I myself often struggle to keep things short. That said, I do think Sciencon-esque judging could work well for more experimental event formats. The lower stakes, I think, encouraged people to step out of their comfort zone and try stuff out.

Turbo Contest, Science Contest, Mystery Contest, Hurry Up! Contest and a Minisode Contest all seem like they could be a lot of fun! The latter should prooooooobably be a vanilla-only thing, else I don't see anyone finish their project.

Saltlord wrote: With most of the more infrequent contest types, figuring out what I want to make in a relatively short span of time is part of the fun for me. Because of that, I would personally rather not see the boss contests and such become backburner events.

That's a fair point.
So far we've been discussing this idea for the trial for backburner, but it's really hard to arrange the schedule, so I'm looking for more feedback...

Simultaneously announced cutscene contest and boss contest. The cutscene contest starts 1 week later runs for 2/3 weeks. The boss contest starts immediately in backburner mode and enters the final stretch 6 weeks later (2/3 weeks after cutscene contest finishes). It kinda goes away from the backburner initial idea and instead towards an idea of harmonizing contests..

Someone set out to do the boss contest can use the cutscene contest deadline as a motivator to keep at it throughout the period. Someone set out to do the cutscene contest has enough time at the end to make a boss built off their cutscene if they want to.
People who do the cutscene contest may choose not to submit to it and instead have their cutscenes judged as part of the boss contest.

That kinda idea.
To recap:
Boss Contest - 4/5 prep weeks into 2 hasty weeks
Cutscene Contest - 1 prep week into 2/3 hasty weeks
Example of overlap showing 3 total weeks for cutscene contest and 7 total weeks for boss contest The logic behind the backburner concept is that coding intensive contests require a lot of prep work, and people start after the announcement anyway. So you kinda end up with this preparation period anyway. So another way to look at this is that we just announce these kinds of contests even sooner and give enough information for people to get started right then and there, and instead of posting the rules thread later we do a mid-contest check up a few weeks before submissions end to be like "hey guys... by the way... time to wrap up your things!!"

But since this is such an unusual structure I'm not sure if it's actually good lol

all of these sound pretty fun but i'm going to have to showcase my personal biases by voting for kaizo, world map and science

Personally I'm not a big fan of the backburner events. When a contest extends for too long, I feel they become less exciting. I also don't like contests that require complex scripts to participate. MapCon particularly had too many choose from, which felt a bit like a chore just to set everything up. If they're given the green light, I'd like if we were provided a kit.

The other contests sounds super fun, I think my favorite has to be the one with a limited palette. They're super fun on Pixel-Art and I'd love to see what people would do with a few colors!

Here's what I believe, by the way I hope I'm not burning any bridges by impromptu dropping out of judging I should have communicated better - anyways.
I notice that, almost unconditionally, the longer a contest goes on & the more gimmicky it appears, the less interest it gains. Also, the longer the timespan between contests occurs, the less interest the next one or two contests receive. Any themed contests are welcome honestly. Even if they only spawn a dozen levels at a time those levels are usually supreme in quality.

As for the "backburner" idea I strongly dislike it as I think it doubles down on the problem that existing contests have had and the latest choccy contest has had severely - peoples' scopes are too big for contest levels. Adding more allotted time WILL make it worse, not better. I honestly think we need to make a basic vanilla or chocolate contest that has a 3-4 week submission period so that it is on peoples' minds. That is more than enough time to make a nice quality level and the designer likely will not have the opportunity to explode their levels in scope & length. If the rotating hosts are up for it I think we should do 4 contests a year again like the old days, this community is more than capable I think. Throw a boss contest in there too. Mystery con Q1, Vanilla/ish Q2, Chocolate Q3, Boss Q4? (I add -ish there because I think allowing a handful of npc! configs for vanilla contests is reasonable as it is something you can technically do in the editor.)

A lack of submissions I think signals we probably need to advertise our community and our contests more often as well, I think that plays a huge factor. That's part of a much different topic however.

Some additional ideas I have for contests (note: Contains CCX5 spoilers):

1. Screen limit in chocolate contests: show

   I usually design levels within a 32-36 screen limit, with an optional bonus of 2-4 screens for cutscenes. Then I race to the exit against a 250-second long song (originally 270 until CCX5). It helped me learn why certain setups work. Perhaps some system to reduce the length of Chocolate contest entries can work? Nothing that would add objectivity to a heavily subjective concept like a checkpoint limit. That would cause discouragement from potential participants, I think. I'm just throwing an admittedly flawed idea around to brew a discussion. After playing the CCX5 entries, I got frustrated that the length issue keeps finding ways to rear its ugly head. I'm probably overanalyzing, but I think it’s related to several other reasons irrelevant to this thread.
2. Smaller events during the Holidays: show

   I understand that the 2-month submission period in CCX5 was to compensate for the holidays. However, after hearing talks about the average level length, I realized this: Level contests during the Holidays always suffer in quality and turnout. This happened with CC6, CC9, AVLC, and both Mysterycons. The SMBX server’s contest-dedicated channel was also unusually quieter than in previous Choccycons. I think what's happening is that level design gets put in the backseat due to how hectic the Holidays are. While it can take a few hours to weeks to complete a level, it still requires a lot of thought. My idea is, instead, there can be smaller events like the Wonderful Extravaganza or a CGFX contest around November-December. It was gratifying to see multiple members come together to complete a majority of Wonder's assets during a chaotic time.
3. Splitting and rebooting Choccycon: show

   This idea is inspired by the growing number of claims that Choccycon (and MAFAB 3 to an extent) have essentially become game jams instead of Mario-level design contests. This has me thinking: Is the limitlessness of the current Choccycon format causing feature shock? Or intimidation because of the belief that entries can't score well without groundbreaking Lua tech? Some of these contest ideas can branch on some entries submitted to the current Choccycon format. And instead of retaining the "anything goes" format, give the contest a unique twist every year — like a MaGLX series with much lower ambition. It could also help alleviate scope creep in levels. I'm not fond of rebooting a series that was already rebooted twice, but I fear something must be done before the community divides itself again like in the late 2010s.

My Top 3 are Sciencecon, Gamecon, and Hurry Up! I'm dying to see another Sciencecon, haha! Gamecon is a concept I thought of inspired by your reviews of the bottom 2 entries in CCX1: "...this might rank pretty well in a "Make a different game in SMBX" contest. Big props for effort!" I talked about it right after reading your reviews, but the idea was dropped due to concerns that too many people would struggle to make an entry. Hurry Up sounds hella fun to build around. Honestly surprised that we haven't seen a contest like it in SMBX, yet. My honorable mentions go to the Seasonal Tournament, CGFX contest, Traditional Contest, and MrNameless's Cutscene Contest idea.

I also have several ideas for contests I brainstormed while gathering my thoughts:
Lastly, I will say: As someone who thinks a huge reconstruction like this is necessary, this plan seems... daunting for a small team. The last thing I want is for anyone in the Event Team to overwork themselves. The Event Team has done a lot of hard work to help maintain contests during the past five years. I know the Event Team is content with its small size, but the last thing I want to see is for anyone in the team to get burned out.

I appreciate having this space to discuss and share feedback on contests for 2025. Once again, the event team's efforts are hugely appreciated!

After reading all your thoughtful comments and concerns about the backburner idea, and mulling it over, I'm also coming around to thinking it's probably a mistake to go for it on a large scale. Shorter deadlines will signal that huge scope projects aren't feasible, and maybe we don't need a space where people are encouraged to submit such projects, when they already have such a space in their personal levels and episodes.

Shortening submission time seems to be a very popular opinion among people who have spoken up. This is something I can get behind. More events as well, and more events of a single type with different spins. The ultimate bottleneck here of course is availability of the event managers.
For context on the team:
The team right now is 5 people, but really it's like 80% me and then I delegate some stuff to Shadowstar sometime when I'm not available to host due to life getting in the way. And sometimes Valentine helps too but she's been more on the backend this past year. We'd be willing to bring more people in, but the most important thing we're looking for is initiative. If you want to be an event manager, you wanna be the first post in 2 months in the chat and be like "i kinda wanna host a contest next weekend" and then we discuss it and do it. That kinda energy would let us host more events and distribute the workload more evenly. And even if you don't wanna be part of the team, you always have the option to host your own contest right here in this subforum independently.

On the topic of splitting Chocolate Contest, yes. Absolutely. I can see Ness's point about the format just being not truly viable for the time anymore due to how much shit is possible. Instead of a screen limit, my idea would be to enforce 300 Mario seconds time limit beatability from every possible start location in the level. (also, 36 screens??? my levels are usually more like, 10-14). I'm lukewarm on themes. Maybe the contest needs a rebrand too. Just call it the Super Contest X or something.

Boss Contest was brought up a couple times, probably because I put it under fire with the backburner idea. I'll not host it backburner, that's decided. But also I don't wanna host a boss contest now before the shorter deadlines have proven their worth. There is a different idea that might happen soon after the holidays? Miniboss Contest with a 1 week submission period.

I'm very excited for a Science Contest. I've started planning one. I think so far, Science Contest was the most fun I've had with a contest. I want to capture that energy again and iterate on it. Not in gimmicky ways but just by polishing the concept a little.

Then there's the topic of holidays being a bad time to run contests. I can see it. As are exam periods. As are other things. Everyone is always busy somewhere, which is what the long deadlines were originally meant to address, but people drop out from overscoping and procrastinating now. More shorter contests seems like the way to approach that. I like using holidays as a means of having a more lax event like wonderful holidays. Maybe an advent of code type thing could be organized. !remindme 11 months.

Please feed me more feedback I'm hungry for democracy nom nom nom

Emral, what about the kaizo and hurry up contests? I really like making challenging stuff sometimes.

Determination709 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2024 2:42 am

Emral, what about the kaizo and hurry up contests? I really like making challenging stuff sometimes.

The Hurry Up contest is one which can easily be slotted into a weekend spontaneously so I'm not really worried about its placement in next year's calendar as much as with some of the bigger contests.
The Kaizo Contest I'm a little afraid of because for the past 5 years participants have sorta been treating regular contests as mini kaizo contest with the difficulty average being very draining and demotivating to judges. When it comes to officially hosting a Kaizo Contest, I'd like to see how difficulty averages skew with shorter submission periods in another contest first. Not because it'd have any implications on Kaizo specifically, just, to ease my worries about difficulty in general lol
But of course both of these formats can be hosted by anyone whenever they like, if my truancy on trying to slot them into a calendar is disappointing.

how about a lunalua contest?

a topic is given, and whoever implements it the best wins.

that could be cool

stupid idea: there is one contest where you edit a bad level and make it good.

other stupid idea/s
a contest you can only edit a lua file or a portion of a lua file (bad idea since it scares vanilla makers)
make a good puZZle level?
make an automatic level?
or maybe the one where theres is a one level and each section is made by participants like in mafab3 postgame level (its very hard for time and schedule tho)

wyldstrykr wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2025 11:53 pm

stupid idea: there is one contest where you edit a bad level and make it good.

Ask TDK to host another B2Good contest this year.

wyldstrykr wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 17, 2025 11:53 pm

stupid idea: there is one contest where you edit a bad level and make it good.

other stupid idea/s
a contest you can only edit a lua file or a portion of a lua file (bad idea since it scares vanilla makers)
make a good puZZle level?
make an automatic level?
or maybe the one where theres is a one level and each section is made by participants like in mafab3 postgame level (its very hard for time and schedule tho)

the puzzle level idea is actually fire