Event Feedback Thread

[Emral]

Up to now, the idea was to pool the feedback in the contest's threads after the contest is over. But people aren't inclined to leave feedback there, and those threads have an expiration date. So to encourage information sharing and preservation, there it is - the Event Feedback Thread!

Got something to say about an official contest or other type of event held in this community?
Wanna absolutely tear down and unleash your wrath over how something didn't happen to your liking, be it a case of terrible mismanagement or me using a swear word?
Got a really hecking cool idea on how to make things better going forward?
Are you feeling thankful and happy about a particular thing from an event which you would like to see make a comeback in the future?
Leave a reply!

If your reply concerns a specific event, please make sure it's clear which event you are referring to so there's no confusion. Thanks!

[deice]

svlc22 was a very interesting display of what happens to scores when the judges have rather differing tastes. while the scores do even out as we go higher up on the placements, the total average point difference of 17.4 (going as high as like 40) results in somewhat wacky situations among the lower ranking levels. which is neat actually in my opinion, because knowing this helps put less weight on the final score and more on how each level can be interpreted by various types of players.

as a personal example, i thought my own submission was a tad low-effort (and never expected it to place higher than die house and funny worm level which were my favorites) but one of the judges really liked it which skewed the score enough so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Alagirez]

I personally think that we should bring back the "tier x" result announcement system, where the host posts one tier a day, like the old CCs did before. It increases the hype among the participants and creates some discussions.

[Emral]

Got something to say about the Science Contest?
Here's a few things on my mind, that I would love to hear your input on. Feel free to mention anything else that you feel worth sharing, too!

The contest format we do is usually heavily tuned towards the results release and feedback to the level creator. This time around, the contest steered hard the other way, heavily prioritizing the resulting episode and its flow of gameplay. What do you think of the following things:
- Heavily disincentivized level length and difficulty, steering levels to be less grand, but more easily digestible.
- A length limit on judge comments. 100 characters was a bit tight, I agree, but being rambly is no help either.
- Contests without a ranking. This is very much a spontaneous outlier here, but I want to read your thoughts on it regardless.

On the topic of community judging:
- How did you like the sheet? I could have made it clearer that you could hit SUBMIT immediately and edit the response afterwards, I think. The intention was for it to be a living document that you lock in early. Thank you to the 11 contributors.
- The simple judging scale. There wasn't really a serious judging rubric here, so I came up with it on the spot. How could it be improved? Is a more detailed scale better?
- Where to draw the line on kindness? There are some review texts I cut due to being mean or just sad to read. I drew the line somewhere between allowing the word "frustrating", but not allowing "x level is just better". Went by gut feeling, and it was a bit unannounced, so if anyone has input on how they think it would make sense to handle this in the future, I would love to read it.

Thank you all for participating, and I hope you enjoy the episode (and the other episode).

[deice]

- Contests without a ranking. This is very much a spontaneous outlier here, but I want to read your thoughts on it regardless.

i personally prefer the more game jam-like contests. there's still a way to gauge relative performance if someone really really wants to, but a grading system where levels occupy certain "ranges" rather than being explicitly ordered is a lot better imo.

- Where to draw the line on kindness? There are some review texts I cut due to being mean or just sad to read. I drew the line somewhere between allowing the word "frustrating", but not allowing "x level is just better". Went by gut feeling, and it was a bit unannounced, so if anyone has input on how they think it would make sense to handle this in the future, I would love to read it.

somewhat torn on this one. overt hostility and personal attacks against a level creator obviously shouldn't be permissible in this kind of scenario, but excluding that i believe even harsh criticism has value. maybe meet in the middle and only show those if the episode's player explicitly wants to see them or something? though that seems a little silly as well. i can't exactly make a definitive judgement myself, touchy subject eh (in any case, i think saying "x level is better" is in very poor taste regardless of whether it should be allowed or not)

[wyldstrykr]

Got something to say about the Science Contest?
Here's a few things on my mind, that I would love to hear your input on. Feel free to mention anything else that you feel worth sharing, too!
- A length limit on judge comments. 100 characters was a bit tight, I agree, but being rambly is no help either.

100 characters is enough to make comments on 1 or few highlights of the level and that should be enough to give it a score/rating imo (tried to post 500 characters comment lol)

On the topic of community judging:
- How did you like the sheet? I could have made it clearer that you could hit SUBMIT immediately and edit the response afterwards, I think. The intention was for it to be a living document that you lock in early. Thank you to the 11 contributors.

specific to this contest: maybe add what science the level uses??? maybe cover it with spoiler or some kind? in case someone like me didnt make it past a screen. didnt know that you can edit the forms so i passed it on 1 sitting. forgot what the other levels so i didnt score it.

- The simple judging scale. There wasn't really a serious judging rubric here, so I came up with it on the spot. How could it be improved? Is a more detailed scale better?

about the scale, less scale means easier to score something but if there is more than 1 variable in judging the level (fun,science, application to it, etc) it might be better for those as individual scoring???

cant say about the kindness part.
congrats for the contest,organiZers and the participants.

[Ness-Wednesday]

I underestimated how much I had to write, so I divided both categories into two spoilers.

Future contests moving forward(?):

Spoiler: show

- Heavily disincentivized level length and difficulty, steering levels less grand, but more easily digestible.

I agree, and would like to add a quote from a comment section on a playthrough of last year’s Choco-latte contest: " I think [levels being very long and hard] might be a systemic issue. People making contest levels only get one shot, so they need to put in all the things [they] want to put in for this one level, regardless of how ill-advised it is.” I noticed that some contests within the past year have levels that go all out with their ideas, resulting in unbalanced and overwhelming gameplay. This doesn’t mean levels can’t be hard, more so the current rubrics for big contests (Vanilla and Chocolate) aren’t great at discouraging overwhelming entries. I think future rubrics should try encouraging participants to implement their best ideas rather than all of them. Anyone can call me out if I’m either looking too far into skill-dependent territory or explaining what’s literally the whole point of disincentivizing level length and difficulty.

The only reason for my slight hesitancy is to check my understanding of how “grand” is defined here. If “grand” is defined as a means to reduce the number of levels that go on for over 10 minutes, then definitely. I’m all for it!

- A length limit on judge comments. 100 characters was a bit tight, I agree, but being rambly is no help either.

I did feel a bit bummed by the 100-character limit at first, but I got used to it really fast. It forces judges to get creative with their comments. After all, they’re not meant to be full-blown reviews. I think it’s fine. Don’t really have much else to say on this, honestly…

- Contests without a ranking. This is very much a spontaneous outlier here, but I want to read your thoughts on it regardless.

I personally liked the format Sciencecon used, but I also agree with what deice said. Contests won’t feel the same if they all continue rank-less moving forward. At the same time, having a contest that lacked rankings was a nice breath of fresh air. I prefer to have a mix of both contests with and without rankings, depending on the theme. Example: Exhibit contests like Sciencecon can continue without ranks, but keep them in future Vanilla and Chocolate contests.

Community judging:

Spoiler: show

- How did you like the sheet? I could have made it clearer that you could hit SUBMIT immediately and edit the response afterward, I think. The intention was for it to be a living document that you lock in early. Thank you to the 11 contributors.

The sheet was fun! I’m probably at an unfair advantage when saying that I didn’t have any clarity issues because I’m highly accustomed to how Google Forms works (High school e-learning lol). I wanted to take some spare time I had to contribute, and I'm glad it paid off.

- The simple judging scale. There wasn't a serious judging rubric here, so I developed it on the spot. How could it be improved? Is a more detailed scale better?

The new judging scale worked excellently in this contest. It enlightened the thought process behind my Sciencecon entries, especially the meta scores. I definitely want to see future rubrics structured like Sciencecon’s. Dare I say, that the rubric was a successful experiment?

- Where to draw the line on kindness? I cut some review texts due to being mean or just sad to read. I drew the line somewhere between allowing the word "frustrating", and not allowing "x level is just better". I went by gut feeling, and it was a bit unannounced, so if anyone has input on how they think it would make sense to handle this in the future, I would love to read it.

This is a difficult topic to cover. Most of what I would’ve said was already stated by deice, but I do want to add more. I think the line of allowing words like “frustrating,” but excluding “Just Y in a contest showcase? X level is better,” works. Perhaps editing the comments if they attack the creator while containing anything constructive towards the level may work? Example: A comment says, "The sky background is an eyesore and is very distracting. Never make custom graphics again, thanks." Keep the first sentence, and remove the second one. I'm unsure if this comes off as sugarcoating, though. There's also the chance that the comment overall aims to be more sadistic than constructive. In that case, the comment can be eliminated entirely. My idea may have more loopholes, as I'm too big-hearted to share an opinion on this topic. Regardless, I wanted to add my two cents to this.

Thank you all for participating, and I hope you enjoy the episode (and the other episode).

Yo, this was a sick contest! I'm really proud of how it turned out and would like to thank Waddle and you for making this contest a reality. This is the most fun I had in a contest since Chocolate 2021. I already completed the episode and will get to my Nostalgic Summer Journey in a bit. We need more experimental contests like Sciencecon. Lastly, welcome back Emral. It's been 3000 years...

[Ness-Wednesday]

Mafab3 Feedback:

Boss Contests:

Spoiler: show

I sadly couldn't get a submission done for Mafab3, but it was enjoyable seeing some friends place well. With how successful Mafab3 turned out, I think there should be more boss contests in the future. They can even have a variety of styles like level contests (Vanilla, Chocolate, etc). Maybe different Boss contests based on different video game franchises (Super Mario, Mega Man, Castlevania, Kirby, etc)? I think Mafab could also work as a standalone series instead of co-releasing with Maglx. Perhaps it could give both Maglx and Mafab more breathing room? Just a thought. I think it's a bummer we might not get another Mafab event for a few years.

Raocow's Playthrough:

Spoiler: show

There was something that Mafab3 reminded me of how much I enjoy, which is Raocow playing through a contest and getting a good laugh. I hope that every year, we could get one contest where Raocow plays through all the entries in a playthrough. I understand Raocow and the event team have completely different schedules, so this could be much to suggest. It could generally be any contest the event team finds fit for Raocow to play, as well as including Mafabs and Maglxs. Whether the episode releases alongside the start of the playthrough or after the 2nd place reveal could be dependent on what type of contest Raocow is playing through. For example, future MaFaBs (if they aren't attached to Maglxs), and other smaller contests with rankings can release when Raocow plays the 2nd place entry. Jam-like/rankless contests and contests with 30+ submissions can have their episodes released alongside Raocow's playthrough with a spoiler disclaimer. The comedic potential (Dr. Bones!) is endless, and seeing contests where Talkhaus and the SMBX forums assemble has an interesting feeling to them. I like looking at the different perspectives both communities have.

Outsourced Judges:

Spoiler: show

JellyfishAmidHardships provided an intriguing set of reviews that helped spice up the judging. My only critique is that it might be hard to read Jellyfish's opinion for those that don't understand every word in their reviews. I understand the idea behind this decision, but I think they attempted it a bit too hard. The idea behind outsourced judges fascinates me because it offers a unique perspective not seen in either the SMBX community or Talkhaus. It could arguably help future contests long-term alongside giving participants feedback.

Contest Timing:

Spoiler: show

Some stated the deadline was too close to their final exams. For me, it's the lack of notice about an official contest during the spring. Between the Science Contest's results and Mafab3's announcement, there was the Retro Boss Contest. Partly, I could've prepared myself better for Mafab3 but got excited about a contest that was a great opportunity to use some techniques I've dreamed of for years. Simultaneously, I feel like the timing caused Mafab3 to snowplow the Retro Boss Contest aside; not giving enough breathing room to those who participated or letting people grasp the episode smoothly. I know the contest was mentioned briefly on the rules page, but when the Retro Boss Contest ended, most were already eyeing the newer Boss contest. There was also some talk in Codehaus about the (postponed?) Vanilla Contest interfering with the Art Inspired Contest or the Redstone challenge. A combination of the unprecedented resurgence of unofficial contests and the lack of notice for most contests until a week in advance results in a complex situation. Not to sound upset, but I think at least a "Stay tuned for the next contest this April! What will it be? Wait and see to find out!" on the Science Contest results page could've been enough. Or maybe a warning to look out for when the next contest is announced in case there are no concrete plans at that moment? It's just the amount of effort some of the entries had following only an 8-day gap before the Mafab3 announcement left me feeling bad for the Retro Boss entries. Honestly, it partly contributed to the burnout I felt during Mafab3. I'm struggling to think of a solution to this problem...

Lastly, two questions I have because I'm curious: Was the decision to have the Chocolate Contest next due to no release date for Beta 5 yet? And if Beta 5 hypothetically were to release sometime in the fall, would a Vanilla Contest still be possible this year, or will it be the first contest next year? I know we had an Autumn Vanilla Level Contest before, but there also wasn't any contest around the Holidays last year.

Even as a spectator, this was a breath of fresh air that I hope could lead to both more boss contests and the return of Raocow playing through contest episodes. Once again, thank you and Raocow for bringing Mafab back. I see oodles of potentially good things Mafab3 could offer for the future, just like the Science Contest. The gimmick was also incredible, and it sucks that we'll probably never have a contest that uses the metronome again. It's one of the most creative gimmicks in a contest so far. I can't say much about the rubric due to me being a spectator, but I can tell it helped with the quality of the entries. Hoping the Chocolate Contest can continue this new trend. I'm loving it!

[I'm unsure if this counts as a double post because both were submitted almost six months apart.]

[Emral]

Thanks for writing such detailed feedback as always. I'll get into a couple of your points and questions:

Boss Contests:
Those are pretty good ideas! I've also pondered the idea for a "Mario-style" boss contest, where a couple of levels with a missing boss fight are available to choose from, and contestants are asked to fill in the boss.

Raocow and MAFAB/MAGLX:
While the schedules diverge a lot, I'm in touch with the raocow and MAGLX organizers so we can make room in our schedule when something happens on their side.

Contest timing:
I've been fumbling the announcements of contests this year a little, and in this regard I think I have to extend a big apology in particular to Darkonius and their own boss contest. With my insistence on the next Vanilla Contest coming after Beta 5, and the release in question being delayed and delayed, my predicted schedules keep being thrown off and causing damage in the planning of others (including the other two contests you mentioned, too). As you said, we've moved Chocolate Contest up next to not cause this to spiral further. Vanilla in winter of this year, if everyting goes well. As for MAFAB, the problem here was partially intertwined with that. I wanted to keep enough space in summer for Vanilla, AND the IDEA for MAFAB3 goes back to March 25th, which is very awkward timing. This is definitely a point I'll try to learn from and avoid repeating.

Other:
I think there's potential in re-using the metronome, perhaps in a slightly altered capacity. The keywords here caused people to lean a lot on Pokemon in particular, but using the level name generator, theme generator, or another set of words could inspire similarly unique entries.

Again thanks for the feedback, and I'm glad you had a good time despite only as a spectator.