Super Mario Bros. X Forums

Joey, would you say that if you were converting someone to Christianity? Isn't it sometimes okay to change your beliefs?

Joey wrote:...what? Why did you edit that part of the post?

If you believe homosexuality is a choice, I'd much rather you stand by that and fight for it instead of succumbing to everyone disagreeing with you.

I added in my previous post that I don't know if people choose it or not. It's a sin, I know. But do people choose to be attracted to the same or the opposite sex? I don't know.

If it isn't chosen, why would you condemn someone to being alone for their whole life? Can't you be married but not necessarily have sex?

FanofSMBX wrote:Joey, would you say that if you were converting someone to Christianity? Isn't it sometimes okay to change your beliefs?

Not sure what you're asking.

Maruiki wrote:

Joey wrote:...what? Why did you edit that part of the post?

If you believe homosexuality is a choice, I'd much rather you stand by that and fight for it instead of succumbing to everyone disagreeing with you.

I added in my previous post that I don't know if people choose it or not. It's a sin, I know. But do people choose to be attracted to the same or the opposite sex? I don't know.

So it's a sin to be gay even though you can't control it? This is what I'm talking about with the whole "gay marriage != being gay != gay sex". Gay sex is something you choose to do, so it makes sense for people to consider that a sin. Being gay, however, is not a choice, so it doesn't make sense to believe that is sinful. It's like saying "you're a sinner because you have autism".

Joey, what would a gay person do? Just be single their whole life?

Are you asking me that in the context of my religion?

As opposed to?

Joey wrote:So it's a sin to be gay even though you can't control it?

That's where I'm stuck.

Honestly, people often get stuck when thinking or coming up with ideas or morals, but when it comes to this topic I can easily answer.

Being girl, black, Jewish, etcetera are things you can't control or change indeed, being gay is no exception. Saying it's a sin to be any of them, in this case, gay, is like saying the fact you're alive is a mere sin. I won't even try to change your mind, everybody has their right to believe what they want, but if you're stuck between either thinking being gay is a sin or not, hell I just need to calm myself right now.

(you can control whether or not you're Jewish, for what it's worth, but I get what you mean)

FanofSMBX wrote:As opposed to?

As opposed to my personal beliefs. I don't know what Catholics believe regarding this besides "one man shall not lay with another man" as per Leviticus. And, obviously, two men can't get married in a Catholic church.

Maruiki wrote:

Joey wrote:So it's a sin to be gay even though you can't control it?

That's where I'm stuck.

Right. It's not a sin. You can't control it.

It looks like your original belief before posting in this topic was "homosexuality is a choice", but now you've been convinced otherwise. I'm still curious as to how you formed your original belief in the first place.

Natsu meant ethnically Jewish I'll bet.
And I mean your personal beliefs.

So, Hebrew then. Sorry, had to nitpick there for a second!!!

As for my personal beliefs, if you want to love someone of the same gender, receive legal benefits for that love, and then have sex with them (or do the sex part before the benefits, whatever), then I don't see any problem.

Natsu wrote:Besides, he's sharing his opinion, you guys are mostly like trying to change that, and that won't happen.

I'm not trying to change his opinion, but I am being candid about sharing my own.

Natsu wrote:At least he's being honest with him, he shares his opinion regarding the fact he opposes with a possible marriage. Worse would be a friend that lies just because he doesn't like the truth. I wouldn't lie somebody if that would make him happy, lying him would do even worse when he finds out, and probably would do even more harm than telling the truth from the beginning.

Neither lying nor telling the truth in the situation that he described should imply any form of respect, is what I'm saying.

Claiming to be friendly and respectful is merely a solvent against criticism here. Whatever form of respect entitles a person to politely deny someone their rights, gay people do not want nor need it, nor will they be convinced to reciprocate it. I can guarantee that.

Maruiki wrote:

Joey wrote:So it's a sin to be gay even though you can't control it?

That's where I'm stuck.

Well, I encourage you to think about it. There's a lot to consider.

I believe when most people decide to place empathy over religious dogmas, the answer is pretty clear. It can come down to being a matter of what you think is more important (provided you correctly believe that homosexuality in general isn't a choice, I mean).

I for one will never stand up for anything that supports oppression, be it Biblical text or otherwise. There are a variety of Christians who believe that the text has been misconstrued or misinterpreted by the language barrier. There are yet others who believe that the text as it is currently understood is infallible. What concerns me isn't so much whether or not the Bible is true, but whether or not it (or our interpretation of it) is righteous.
Even then, though... assuming you believe that a doctrine should be more important, there's still the question of scientific proof to guide faith, because without proper direction one could choose to have faith among many different religions without understanding which is the correct one, and without that, the justification for any kind of condemnation of people who do no harm to others seems flimsy at best.
Still, finally, there's the question of whether or not the events depicted in the Bible, if proven true, must all be attributed to a loving God, and not just a demonic asshole who has God-like powers with which to manipulate people, and I doubt there's a viable enough answer that would justify following that being other than, I guess, the threat of being oppressed yourself (which, in my eyes, still wouldn't make it right).

I'd like to say some things here.

Maruiki, being gay is not a choice. There is loads of evidence to the contrary. For one thing, 99.999999% of the gay community will tell you it's not, so at that point if you're saying it's a choice, it's probably time to put on your tinfoil hat.

To Joey, saying that Maruiki has a right to that opinion and should stand by it, and we shouldn't be encouraged to try to get him to change it, is definitely not correct in my opinion. While he certainly has a right to say that due to freedom of speech, he is just wrong. You can't have an opinion about objective facts. While it cannot technically be proven unless you yourself are gay, whether being gay is a choice or not is, in fact, an objective discussion.

Saying these kinds of things is also a form of bigotry. It's essentially the same as saying that black people are stupider than white people. But, if Maruiki had come in here and started talking about how it's his opinion that white people are smarter than black people, I doubt you would be defending him.

I'm sorry if I get a little too mad here, but it's worth noting that I am bisexual (not by choice, but by brain structure). I do, to some extent, take personal offense to statements like this, seeing as how it's interfering with choices that I might want to make in the future.

I definitely never said you shouldn't be encouraged to get Maruiki to change his opinion. I said Maruiki shouldn't change his views just because everybody here disagrees with him, which was what looked like was happening.

Knux wrote:

Joey wrote:I definitely never said you shouldn't be encouraged to get Maruiki to change his opinion. I said Maruiki shouldn't change his views just because everybody here disagrees with him, which was what looked like was happening.

But is this really a case of opinion...or false information?

Fact: you don't choose what you're attracted to.

Is his opinion still valid?

This is basically my point. You can't have an opinion about objective facts, so what his "opinion" about how sexual orientation works is pretty much irrelevant.

Doesn't make it any less opinionated.

My original point was that Maruiki shouldn't back down on what he believes unless we legitimately convinced him to reconsider.

Then again Pseudo-Dino, it's his opinion. I really wouldn't give a fuck if he thinks black people are stupider than white people because I, and many people, know that is NOT true. That is also OUR opinion. Saying he can't have an opinion regarding this matter is like forbidding someone one of the most personal rights that ever existed, to think differently.

Knux wrote:...which we're trying to do?

Irrelevant to his ability to stand up for what he believes.

Knux wrote:That doesn't make any sense.

You're saying he's entitled to believe that people choose to be gay, when it's a FACT that's false.

Yup.