Projects changes

[aero]

After some discussion in this thread there have been proposed changes to the Projects forum. Briefly they are:

• Allow concept threads
• Remove the emphasis on project completion
• Consider collaboration and sharing ideas as proof of effort
• Allow for veterans and new members to collaborate and hone their skills
• Open up projects for more creativity and receiving feedback

Please read the thread, think about this, and share your thoughts. If there's a consensus then this will move forward and eventually be implemented.

[Chanceux2]

Wow that's a nice change. But now im thinking about my episode

[Cedur]

Wait so ... crudely spoken, the only thing I'm seeing now is that random idea threads are allowed and everyone can hop on the forums and post "hey I've been working on [TITLE] it's gonna have [X] worlds" now? I thought we wanted a change that encourages people more to finish their projects, and not have plenty of short-lived members making threads that they'll abandon anyway?

Could you please elaborate a little bit the difference between a suitable concept thread, and a cheap thread that's not allowed by the rules?

[aero]

A suitable concept thread would be one where ideas are shared, feedback is given, and that is taken into account for the project's development and management. Project cancellation would be expected from the original author but it wouldn't be taken as a negative. Failure is part of the learning process, so it should be expected and should help people improve.

[Murphmario]

Maybe we could split up projects that actually have good progress and ones that are just ideas into subforums.

[Emral]

I thought we wanted a change that encourages people more to finish their projects, and not have plenty of short-lived members making threads that they'll abandon anyway?

If you read my post in the other topic where the idea is explained... those are not mutually exclusive. My idea does both. I encourage you reading it, but below is a more elaborate form of the thought process:

(In order to read this post it might help to stop viewing episodes and projects as feeding the player's lust for things to play, and more for the designer's interest in sticking around, improving and making more levels in the future)

The issue, as first explained, is "people aren't finishing their projects enough". But who is "people" and WHY are they not finishing them enough?
- People are newcomers who try out the engine and want to do something cool
- They don't finish them enough because they run out of ideas or get tired of a concept

What would enforcing more rules do in those situations?
- Nothing, for people who jump over the initial posting hurdle
- People who cannot might not post their project altogether, cutting them off from receiving feedback and encouragement

The case right now is that the rules in the projects forum don't address people not FINISHING projects, but rather people not STARTING projects. I'll go through these one at a time, starting with "starting".

Why the forum has a misconception about started projects: Projects are more than the levels that make it into the game. Around the level design there is a concept phase and a "marketing" phase. Each of the three is a different area of expertise, and a new designer may find a particular interest in one particular one of the three at any given moment.

Why the forum has a misconception about finished projects: The difference between an episode and a project right now is that an episode is a project where the finished result roughly equals the intended scope. However, one could also think of "finished" as "done with". And when a project creator is "done with" a project and moves on to the next is nothing that can be controlled by rules, since it's personal preference. Fixing that by forcing them to stick with the idea indefinitely is a shitty idea cause it won't be fun for the designer and won't lead to good levels as a result. Projects can be cancelled at the 90% mark and we can't change that.

So how do we ensure that more episodes get finished?
In short, we don't. The people working on them have to. But we can make rules that help them get there. And this is how we get to what Aero posted.

This community has been lacking in veteran-newcomer interaction for a solid decade, which has caused the divide between high and low skill to drift further apart. Old members have fun, stick around, learn more, get better. New members make a level and receive a rude comment and ask themselves if this community i's even the right place for them to be. A few years back a controversy about elitism sprouted on the forums, accusing veterans of forming an elitist clique encouraging the divide. I think the "clique" exists but is a subconscious aspect because this forum doesn't do anything to break the "everyone works on their own" attitude that goes contrary to the concept of a community.

SO. How do concept threads fix all that?

First, it's important to recognize that ideally there should be absolutely no external pressure on the designer to reach their often lofty goals. A project is done when the designer is done with it.
Once the designer is done with it, they should be encouraged by the rules to post what they have, so others can give more feedback based on that and their next idea can be even better. This is necessary because cancelled projects are part of the improvement path of a developer. You've all never seen half my projects because they weren't worth posting because of the divide between cancellation and finishing. I've made a lot of world 1-3s.
Concept threads allow people who are currently more interested in formulating level ideas and project structures to share some of them and receive feedback. They also allow people more interested in marketing to hone their skills of capturing enticing imagery and testing out how to feels to post them at a particular rate.
Concept threads are also project threads. Any project thread should be encouraged to post more details about the going-ons in the project. Stuff like individual level ideas, progression systems, etc. They should especially not be separated because that would just re-introduce external pressure once a project jumps over an arbitrary hurdle even though the project isn't any more likely to be finished in the 5% below the hurdle than in the 5% above it. Regardless of where the hurdle is. Not to mention external pressure. I don't understand the argument of separation brought up earlier because it just sounds like it can be easily fixed by the person only making posts when there's something to say that contributes to a thread, but I figured I would address it here.
With the focus shifting to the developer and imrpoving their learning and fun with the engine, we narrow the gap between newcomer and veteran and allow people to improve more more quickly. As a result, if people who give feedbback remember to follow common posting etiquette, will have more skilled designers more capable of finishing proper episodes, and more half-finished episodes to play for helping these people out. What this suggestion does is not reduce the number of finished episodes, but rather make the path TO finishing a first episode more visible by making the cancelled projects that lead there visible and allowing people to more easily give tips and ideas. I think we might even see more episodes than we do right now, if people continue to actively help each other out. I hope that with this change posting a project thread will no longer feel like a large committment to constant updates, but more like a blog.

Any lingering questions might be explained by the post linked at the beginning of this post. So check that post out before asking.

[aero]

There seems to be more support than opposition to this?

[Cedur]

I still haven't got to read into further detail (Corona drama is starting to destroy my mood).

[aero]

I think by the end of the week I'll go ahead with this. I haven't seen any criticism as of yet. If that changes then it can be postponed.

[PdizzleParker]

Maybe we could split up projects that actually have good progress and ones that are just ideas into subforums.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I think it could work well.

[Emral]

Maybe we could split up projects that actually have good progress and ones that are just ideas into subforums.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I think it could work well.

Could either of you provide an argument in favour of that idea? Because as far as I described in my last post in this topic I feel like that would defeat the entire purpose.

[PdizzleParker]

In my opinion, a concept thread could be created for projects that either:
1) Haven't started yet, but might be started later.
2) Have already begun but have VERY minimal work done on them.

This would be good for members to share their early concepts and/or basic ideas with the community (world themes, length, story, ect.), and get positive or negative feedback. With the feedback in mind, they could start to build their project based off of it and then create a project thread with screenshots and more specific details. I honestly think that it would be good to separate the concept threads into a subforum simply called "Concepts", as to not clutter the main projects forum (y'know, assuming these new rules described by Aero end up happening, which they probably will).

[Emral]

You describe them as "clutter", but I don't know in what way they could be that. What is your intended experience when visiting the projects forum? It's probably not to find content to play, but if it's viewing the things other people come up with (which is my motive), then I would think that project threads are of equal value regardless of (sub-100) completion percentage. Especially if concept threads or cancelled project threads could lead to collaboration or a switch in lead developer following conversation.
I have already outlined how I don't think there's a reasonable distinction between project threads based on length in my previous post, but on top of that I feel like the separation will additionally cause the concept threads to fall back into obscurity and render this effort worthless (hence, defeating the purpose).

I think I'll definitely need to know what you're looking for when visiting the project forum to understand your argument better. For contrast: I spend most of my time in the main post of a project thread, reading through the concept.

[PdizzleParker]

Well, the current rules of the projects forum state that you must provide screenshots, or else the thread will be locked. So, when I open up a project thread, all I really expect are screenshots, and maybe a few details about the project. If there's a demo already available, then that's even better, but to be honest, I'd be happy with screenshots and some information to read through. As I said in my previous post, a concept thread could be made for an idea for a future project. That means the project has no screenshots and minimal information, obviously. These would be better in a subforum because there's way less information and no screenshots. I'm not saying that concept threads would be bad by any means. It's just that keeping them in the main projects forum would slowly start to fill it up. However, what you said about how the project length doesn't matter I definitely agree with now. I'm just saying concept threads should be for ideas of projects that haven't started yet.

[aero]

A subforum set aside on the basis of screenshots vs no screenshots is pretty overkill. Screenshots and that sort of stuff seems much better suited for Discord anyway.

[PdizzleParker]

Oh, I see. It's just that I know there are more people on the forums than there are on the Discord server. But yeah, I suppose that you're right. I was just overthinking it a little.

[ElectriKong]

There is more activity on the Discord server, and its showcase channels are utilised more for posting screenshots than forum threads.

Under the new system, screenshots can be posted on there server's showcase channels in the screenshots thread on the forum, and it would be up to the indvidual user if they want to post screenshots in their project thread after the system is implemented.

[PdizzleParker]

There is more activity on the Discord server, and its showcase channels are utilised more for posting screenshots than forum threads.

Under the new system, screenshots can be posted on there server's showcase channels in the screenshots thread on the forum, and it would be up to the indvidual user if they want to post screenshots in their project thread after the system is implemented.

Yeah, that's just about what I was collecting. Now I understand fully.

[aero]

Gonna post a thread explaining this change, and leave this announcement up for a little while longer.

[Cedur]

So the only change is that rules are becoming obsolete?

If this is practiced in the way Shadowstar just did, it's cool; if it also includes new members posting "hey I've been working on Super Mario 128 X", it's not.