Should clips be removed from SMBX?

[55jedat555]

@55jedat555: So essentialy the majority of the userbase should accomodate to the minority. That's what your entire post boils down to. And since you asked a question, Yes, yes it's worth the effort to remove clips, fixing bugs should always be a priority when it comes to the development of any kind of software.

Let me rephrase that for you: the majority should be encouraged to learn more about the engine they're using, if that involves clips or not. Even if clips get removed, other (perhaps more obscure) advanced tech such as item abuse, shell jumps, bomb jumps, etc. still remains part of the game, and assuring that levels aren't breakable using those tricks is far more difficult than preventing potential clips, even the statue clip that can be used to bypass virtually any wall. I think that when people see their levels being broken they should take that as a lesson for the future instead of just complaining how the game is broken and jank (although I won't deny that, it's redigit we're dealing with anyway). Furthermore, zips don't cause game crashes (at least none that were discovered so far), meaning that they can't just be blatantly compared to other 1.3 shenanigans such as the mushroom+lava crash or venus plant error.

[Fuyu]

See, that's where you're wrong. One thing is to use tricks to sequence break, another is to abuse an early-game bug that was never meant to be a thing. This may not crash the game but that doesn't mean the bug has a vip pass and can stay.

Edit: Woohooo!!! 3000th post after 6 years!!!

[Animebryan]

@55jedat555: So essentially the majority of the userbase should accommodate to the minority. That's what your entire post boils down to. And since you asked a question, Yes, yes it's worth the effort to remove clips, fixing bugs should always be a priority when it comes to the development of any kind of software.

I'll repeat this again. Some forms of clipping (crouch zip) may not be a bug or a glitch at all. It existed since the first Mario game, and could be exploited to gain an advantage & reach areas normally not accessible. The really glitchy ones that can cause an unfair death or soft-lock should be fixed for sure, but ones like the crouch zip which has been used as a 'secret' method for hiding things or bypassing certain obstacles should continue to exist so that they be used by players & level designers alike.

[Fuyu]

@55jedat555: So essentially the majority of the userbase should accommodate to the minority. That's what your entire post boils down to. And since you asked a question, Yes, yes it's worth the effort to remove clips, fixing bugs should always be a priority when it comes to the development of any kind of software.

I'll repeat this again. Some forms of clipping (crouch zip) may not be a bug or a glitch at all. It existed since the first Mario game, and could be exploited to gain an advantage & reach areas normally not accessible. The really glitchy ones that can cause an unfair death or soft-lock should be fixed for sure, but ones like the crouch zip which has been used as a 'secret' method for hiding things or bypassing certain obstacles should continue to exist so that they be used by players & level designers alike.

May, as in may also not be. And even if it were, the fact it's a glitch doesn't change.

[HenryRichard]

I'm 99% sure the crouch zip is an intentional feature (a glitch by definition is unintentional) that I believe shouldn't be removed due to it breaking various secrets and being really easy to design around. I think it would be pretty easy to write some lua to force players to keep crouching in 1-block gaps though; if someone did that it could be released as a separate library that could easily be added to a level or episode with basically no coding knowledge.

Other clips are really annoying though, especially the zipping on platforms, which could be hard to remove without breaking crouch clipping... if that's the case I'd be OK with crouch clipping going away as a necessary sacrifice.

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[Hoeloe]

Feel like I should clarify some stuff here:

1) If clips were to be removed, this would absolutely be done in a way that will not break older levels, even those relying on clips. Either an option would be given in the editor, or simply newer files would disable clips. "It would break levels" is not a concern.
2) To a point, Eclipsed is right in that zipping is part of the engine's ejection system (that is, the system the game has for dealing with invalid player positions), but it's more an unintended side effect of that system than an actual feature. Ejection systems are necessary, though, and what "removing clips" would entail is creating a new, more robust ejection system more similar to the one used in Mario Maker.

[Cedur]

I'd like to reaffirm that clipping saved my day more often than ruining it (I most notoriously remember the World 10 secret exit in Airship Attack which was excessively hard without clipping).

also congratz Natsu

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[Cedur]

Was that the boss rush at the end?

no, that underground billy gun level where you have to beware of poison mushrooms

thanks to clipping I could just use a leaf instead of carrying the billy gun and triggering all ?-blocks with poison mushrooms

[Sednaiur]

In my opinion, the crouch clip and move clip (platform clip) would be better off removed. Here are the reasons why I think that:

Crouch Clip; Triggering it is very easy and simple and the way Redigit made it behave is just not the correct way. In the original games, the crouch clip was made so that the player would always clip to the right while not being able to control it good, probably because progression in levels were made by moving from left to right. It was there to prevent a softlock, in most cases. In SMBX, however, the player can control the direction of the clipping simply by facing the other direction and I never understood why that was the intention. And having the crouch clip occuring is not just because of people not knowing about it. It can be forced to occur pretty easy even in levels with design taking the clip into account. When there is a wall of breakable bricks, they can be broken in a way to allow the clip. Or bring a Mushroom Block and use that one. Or the SMB3 Kick Blocks. Go and watch some videos by Mechdragon, Wraith Admaknight, Prox or Bosseditor to see how to break even solid design with easy tricks. If anything, I would make it so that any playable cannot stand up if the result would be a clip. Jumping while crouching would be the only means to cross small gaps.

Platform Clip; That one happened to me several times on accident and either skipped part of a level, gave me access to areas not intended to, or just killing me in a silly way. Having this clip not happen at all would be very nice. To me this is not just a clip but a real glitch that was never intended, as there should be nothing like this happening in a platformer. It makes the game in question less stable and reliable.

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[Enjl]

That video's arguments are rather weak and one-sided, to the point where it made me a bit uncomfortable while watching. Comments bring up some good alternative points. I feel like the video would've been better if it also addressed other facets of play, such as the competitive multiplayer advantage from cat suit cancelling, or how global ground might contribute to a laggy experience (reflecting back worse on the game itself).
A lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes, and with the games tuned toward a target audience that doesn't include Ceave or other ridiculous level designers, it feels a bit like ignorant yelling without knowing any of the reasons for why decisions are made in the way that they are. I don't think any conclusion can be reached until a port of 3D World is released and people can see whether the technique is still present there. If it is, it basically confirms that it was removed because of multiplayer advantage.

I feel like posting it in this thread is also a form of false equivalency. On one hand there's minor tech with its only benefits being advantages for knowledgeable people, and on the other hand is a glitch that will ruin your level if you, as the designer, don't already have knowledge about it and spend a lot of testing time making sure it can never be executed unless specifically desired. Removing it by default would make designing more approachable and would make more creative designs more easily doable (one-block tall hallways in levels with powerups, for instance). And if you're a player without knowledge of it and who encounters it in a level on accident and dies because of it, your experience also worsens. There's one CCX1 level in which zips happen constantly and if it weren't for them, the level would be really good. But they're so easy to run into and they will kill you every time, that it makes the level borderline unplayable.
If your best argument in favor of them is that it lets you skip levels when playing levels, maybe intentional advanced forms of movement (such as cat suit dive cancelling, or a ground pound to quickly gain a lot of speed on slopes) might be a more fun way of improving the skill ceiling while playing this game.

[Teemster2]

All I will say is the original games never had these glitches to my knowledge and we should want to have a more polished game like the original ones.

[cato]

Right now, looks like there's just going to be optional Lua configs to still have old behaviour for SMBX glitches.
I just think this is an interesting video to add to the discussion and share thoughts on.

I mean, removing clips is like being Nintendo removing glitches in Mario Maker 2. The reason for removing glitches is that it is not the intended way to play the game. Even though it doesn't make the gameplay worse, they would still remove them because they wanted the player to play in an intended way.

The video brought up some good points though. The majority of glitches and jank are the one making the game special in the first place. If Mario 64's glitches are patched, no one today would be speedrunning the game. If Mario Maker's glitches are patched, most of the good troll levels would just be hidden blocks everywhere.

[Enjl]

Wow therer are a LOT of brittle assumptions in that post. Few things to think about:
- There are differences between removing glitches in a game where all levels are a done deal, and game engines where level creation is ongoing and designers who maybe don't want their levels broken are frequently publishing levels. Fixes to Mario Maker and SMBX are more akin to unity engine fixing a physics bug that affects all games made in it.
- There are many more reasons for removing glitches than "not intended way to play". Disabling zips by default, like I outlined, would be on the basis of enabling new ways to DESIGN robustly. Icicle fix is likely lag prevention, cat suit change is to balance multiplayer. Watch it not be "fixed" in a 3D World switch port.
- There are plenty of levels where zips actively make the levels they're in worse, so they also harm gameplay. Again, read my post.
- Games can be interesting, special and fun to speedrun even if they don't have glitches
- Hardly any of the good mario maker 2 troll levels rely on glitches. The most elaborate trick used frequently is with entity limits, and entity limits by themselves were implemented to minimize lag. I don't know in what world the troll level designers would suddenly unlearn their experience of making good levels.