Tips and Tricks - Working on a Project

[Emral]

Some things to think about if your project is going to take a long time:
1) Will I be able to work on it for that long?
-if you think you may burn out or get stressed out or simply lose the desire to continue, then you may end up going on hiatus or cancelling the project, and end up disappointing supporters.

This is not something people realise up front. It's a result of poor planning, but the low quality of a project's plan is something most people without knowledge in project management only realise halfway through, often when they either run out of ideas or see that the quality of their work isn't what they expected it to be.
If you want to avoid these things, a spreadsheet with every little detail about your episode is just about mandatory. You NEED an overview, you NEED to know what to do, and you NEED to set yourself a scope you can reasonably work in. Baby steps are key in getting a feeling for how much you are capable of and where you should improve next, which is why I always tell people to work on smaller projects before tackling a large passion project. A project is a house of cards and good project management is what's keeping it from falling apart.

[erkyp3rky]

I feel that when people think unrealistically the hurt when they realise it's not possible is astronomically worsened.

Because how much they say they'll do, they physiologically expect themselves to be able to provide, and feel the need to prove their worth. I just want to say to those people that bigger does not always equal better.

You could make a 100 level monkey circus piece of trash, or you could spend your free time making let's say a 10 level project and it would be fantastic. They both can differ. Just because it has more levels does not mean it makes it amazing, and even sometimes small amounts of levels don't do too well. It depends on your skill not the size.

[Cedur]

response to LoafLord's wall of text on discord

Try to remember quantity over quality isn't always true, and that bigger is better also isn't true. You and I both know that you can't single handedly create 200 levels with a unique concept per level, and even if you had a team of 10 you would still struggle.

Many, many people are shutting down their projects or taking year long breaks, ect ect. I just want to say, to a certain degree, it's kind of your fault. Sometimes, there are cases where it's real life. And if that happens, I wish you the best of luck however it seems more and more projects are going on massive hiatus periods and getting shutdown due to the fact they think they aren't providing enough.

Also, just an after note, I made these same mistakes when I came here. Why do you think my project failed? The level count was insane. So please remember that you really, really need to think realistically.
Another after note, if you pay attention to what I do, I'm rebooting my project, and you'll probably notice something different this time around: it's planned to have 25 levels. No more, no less. The change is drastic, I know, but it's definitely worth it.

Here's why a project of 25 levels seems too small for me at first sight. SMW has 72 levels with 96 exits, YI has 60 levels, Super Mario 64 has 120 different missions, the NSMB games have around 60 - 90 levels, Newer SMBWii even has 128. Episodes are usually supposed to resemble actual Mario games, and there is some kind of established quantity estimation of between whether something feels too short-lived or whether something feels overbloated. Sure, exceptions exist. But usually I expect that after only 25 levels, the episode might not feel topped off already or there could still be more to come or the game was just over too quickly or whatever.

Next, "unique concept per level" is a ridiculous goal compared to what episodes are meant for. A lot less is needed to make sure that the levels don't feel repetitive, and not every marvellous skill is needed to provide a good playing experience. If you want to make a set of a dozen absolutely stellar levels that take like a month each, that's what the standalone levels forum is for. Sure, once you have made 30 of those, you could think of juxtaposing them somehow to an instantly featured episode. But how many people could that? About just as few people as could become Petanque World Champion? If you want to be realistic and enjoy yourself, then become independent from the unhealthy standards that have arisen in this community. Learn to enjoy simplicity to a certain degree. This is also why the Novaverse projects were bound to fail. Eri completely lost his grip on reality, he was not contented with "anything average".

This community's clientele are amateur fangamers and fangame lovers. BTB memes aside:

March 30th

<ShadowStarX> also I get why they've become unwelcome in contests but...
what is wrong with romps
I mean a few of them here and there don't hurt, do they
<Aero> what's a romp again
<Pseudo> ^^
<sdace> A level that you can beat with your eyes closed
<ShadowStarX> isn't it like a level that doesn't have a gimmick
<Pseudo> that's considered a bad thing now?
<ShadowStarX> or it doesn't have elements that make it extraordinarily special but isn't necessarily utterly repetitive
<Pseudo> to just have a regular level?
jeez
<ShadowStarX> idk I might misunderstand the situation now
well for a contest
I can perfectly understand why that happens tho
true you can make a gimmickless level clever af as well
utterly clever npc placement can do wonders, can't it
<Aero> why is it called romp
<ShadowStarX> I've heard that term used often for levels with no gimmicks
thus, I associate rompy with gimmickless
<dude> so does that mean i can never make a good level until i learn lua scripting?
<ShadowStarX> you don't need lua or gimmicks to make a good level
<Pseudo> that's the one thing that really frustrates me about the community these days
the crazy high standards for everything
even smwcentral doesn't expect a unique gimmick in every level
<ShadowStarX> it's good to have standards
but if you make them high
it can backfire
<Pseudo> standards, sure
<ShadowStarX> it can easily demotivate intermediate designers
<Vito> Well, lots of hack in smw central has not much gimmicks
<Aero> this calls for a movement. standards are too high
<Pseudo> like sure, having a ton of floating munchers is not terrible desirable
<dude> i transferred some episodes to smbx2, 90% of the episodes dont have gimmicks
<Pseudo> ikr aero
it's like we need to return to an earlier time
<dude> i still enjoy those episodes despite them not having any gimmicks =Y
[...]
<ShadowStarX> we have to find the perfect balance between basics and complexity
[...]
<Pseudo> yeah i agree
complex levels can be really cool
but simple levels shouldn't be considered inherently worse

[Emral]

Here's why a project of 25 levels seems too small for me at first sight. SMW has 72 levels with 96 exits, YI has 60 levels, Super Mario 64 has 120 different missions, the NSMB games have around 60 - 90 levels, Newer SMBWii even has 128. Episodes are usually supposed to resemble actual Mario games.
"unique concept per level" is a ridiculous goal compared to what episodes are meant for.

If you play any mario game released in the past 20 years you will find that every level has a unique identity to it. Reoccuring themes like the skewer towers and lakitu have had their unique twists put on them in basically every New Super Mario Bros game, while SM64, Sunshine, Galaxy, 3DLand/World and Odyssey have heavily themed levels as well.
The assumption that these levels don't have concepts to them that are unique to their game is wrong. Making a level different from others in a game is what makes it memorable. Every platformer follows this idea and it's a pretty established concept. If someone wants their levels to be remembered, this is a good place to start.

If you want to make a set of a dozen absolutely stellar levels that take like a month each, that's what the standalone levels forum is for.

The difference between a badly constructed and aimless level and a level made to impress judges in a contest isn't binary. You can make great levels while putting effort into them and thinking them through properly without writing new mechanics or bosses. Walder's recent work is a good example of this. These levels are fun to play, follow a coherent structure (4step level design) and are memorable through their theming. And he's pumping out a new one every week.
In reality, the standalone levels is for just what it says: Standalone levels. Levels which aren't intended to be connected to a larger storyline. The episode forum, hate to break it to you, is meant for these storylines which tie levels together. The difference between the forums has nothing to do with time and effort spent on individual levels.

But how many people could that? About just as few people as could become Petanque World Champion?

Anyone dedicated to improve their skills in level design and project management? Like, you're talking as if "instantly featured episodes" only happen for stuff that's reshaping the landscape of how we think about levels. I'd say projects like Yoshi's Archipelago and Super Mario Bros 0 show a pretty clear counterexample.

Here's why a project of 25 levels seems too small for me at first sight. SMW has 72 levels with 96 exits, YI has 60 levels, Super Mario 64 has 120 different missions, the NSMB games have around 60 - 90 levels, Newer SMBWii even has 128. Episodes are usually supposed to resemble actual Mario games, and there is some kind of established quantity estimation of between whether something feels too short-lived or whether something feels overbloated. Sure, exceptions exist. But usually I expect that after only 25 levels,

It's important to remember that mario games are made by a team of level designers which have a paid job over 40 hours a week or so, designing these levels over the course of a few years. Expecting amateurs with no experience in project management to accomplish the same and resemble these games isn't realistic due to the time investment, pressure and fast improvement rate. I've been crushed under this pressure a good dozen times myself. This thread aims to help in reducing that pressure, but reducing scope is a necessary aspect of that. The accomplishment of finishing four 10 level episodes as a newcomer is much greater than the accomplishment of finishing one 40 level episode. Long episodes are draining to design if you don't have or don't know how to make a plan and don't have a grasp on your abilities and toolset yet.

If you want to be realistic and enjoy yourself, then become independent from the unhealthy standards that have arisen in this community. Learn to enjoy simplicity to a certain degree. This is also why the Novaverse projects were bound to fail. Eri completely lost his grip on reality, he was not contented with "anything average".

The unhealthy standards are often self-imposed. I know that this is at least the case for Eri. He flat-out said he wanted to be the best in the community, while not having enough experience to be that. Eri lacked what I mentioned in this post and will mention again: Project management skills and the ability to recognise his strengths and weaknesses and effectively work on them. Many people offered help to him but he struggled to meet up to his own expectations regardless. This isn't meaning to bash Eri. I wanted to see him break out of that vicious cycle, too.
When I was a newcomer I also had a lot of unrealistic expectations towards myself when making projects. And heck, I still do. Jealousy of designers with more experience is nothing new, but I feel like nowadays the community tries to help each other out more to overcome that, which is a good thing.

tl;dr cedur please let people design what they want and stop forcing your unhealthy expectations onto newcomers

[Walder]

ced you seem to be imposing your own standarts while bashing self made standarts for being set, man

[Cedur]

I have talked to Eri in private as well so I know that it was him and only him who drove himself crazy.

Your above points about "episodes vs. standalone levels" are fair obviously but I was talking about a practical aspect. By "level that's supposed to impress judges" I mean the process of making a level and taking care of everything with maximum meticulousness w/e which expands the duration of making the level to a full month or the like.

""instantly featured episodes" was a hyperbola expressing that such a thing as described above would most likely get instantly featured for being awesome (rightfully).

There are quite a handful examples of 50+ level episodes that were made by one person (or mostly one person) alone. I want that this quantity range stays the average, as I consider my plays of episodes as adventures, no matter if someone does it alone or has a team (which of course is still a large benefit). Quoting TheLoafLord again, the problem is if people think they can accomplish everything within an unrealistically short time.

I don't tell anyone how to design and what to design but I'd always tell anyone to not become too out of touch with reality and to be honest with themselves, because otherwise they'll also torture themselves on their project until finally giving up.

And if someone wants to keep their project small and I think it's too small, I'd gently try to convince them expanding it a bit if it makes sense, but if they think it's fine well it's their right.

[Emral]

I don't tell anyone how to design and what to design

Then detach yourself from the assumptions you made above:

Episodes are usually supposed to resemble actual Mario games

compared to what episodes are meant for

that's what the standalone levels forum is for

--------------------------

I consider my plays of episodes as adventures

The fact of a game being an adventure is unrelated to the length of the game. A short game might feel incomplete just as much as a large game may feel bloated.

By "level that's supposed to impress judges" I mean the process of making a level and taking care of everything with maximum meticulousness w/e which expands the duration of making the level to a full month or the like.

It doesn't. I'm speaking from experience here. Over time you internalise design patterns and develop your own design style. Falling into that style will become effortless, and designing great levels for it that could land in the top 10 of contests within a week or two will become possible. People should work according to their abilities while aiming to improve them, yes, but generalising this skill level into a global constant and taking it for a rule isn't right if you ask me.

There are quite a handful examples of 50+ level episodes that were made by one person (or mostly one person) alone. I want that this quantity range stays the average

I prefer a large number of episodes which get finished on time and are planned out well to the point where they can feel like the designer did everything they wanted to do over a small number of episodes which are trying to aim for a big level count and constantly toppling over the edge of cancellation. The long episodes can take several years, don't underestimate the stress the designers (especially ones with not too much experience) go through.

I'd always tell anyone to not become too out of touch with reality and to be honest with themselves, because otherwise they'll also torture themselves on their project until finally giving up.

Glad we're on the same page here.

[Eri7]

I wanted to share my story of how i started my project and try to show a new perspective of "working on a project".
(It would be also fun to see the stories of other people so maybe we could learn something from them)

Spoiler: show

Why do we all start our first project? Is it because we wanted to make a well designed game? I doubt that, at that time, most of us lack the experience to mantain a well designed game. Well what else could it be? I think that for some people it was because they wanted to make their own adventure of Mario. For others it might be because they feel confident in their abillities to present a good game. Well my case was different. 2 years ago, on September 15, 2016 i started my project because i wanted to create a game that one of my friends could play. At that time i didn't even know the smbx community existed and that smbx 38A is actually not "smbx". Well fast forward to December 2016. I found out that the PGE forums hosted the 38A community. I was amazed by the projects there and i felt like i wanted to make my game for more than one person. I wanted my game to be played by the community. So i started to spend a lot of time on smbx, trying to create something that at the time, it was a bad designed project with a lot of flaws but it was fun for me. Then later on in January 2017, i joined the discord server of smbx 38A where i started talking to other people who were making projects as well and i was exploring a whole new area in making projects. Everyone had their own ideas and some of them knew what they wanted their project to be about. Me? I just wanted to put a lot of levels because i had a lot of fun making levels where i can use my ideas. Yes, they were not well designed but that's because i didn't have any experience in level design or in making a game. As time went on, i kept meeting more and more people who actually had knowledge in these stuff and i started to learn slowly and with time change what my project would be about. Well fast forward again to September 2017, it was the time where i finally met people who were experts at making projects. I started slowly to learn from them and try to improve even if it wasn't as drastic improvement as someone who actually knew HOW to improve. I tried replicating some stuff from other projects because i wanted my project to be like the other ones that are good, i wanted my project to be good. So i changed everything about my project. It turned out into a mess of planning. I still had NO experience related to how to plan a project so my plans were "get an idea for a level, use it in a level, profit" which was a very bad mindset at the time. A lot of stuff happened in the next months, i started slowly learning about the level tips because i joined codehaus where people were actively having discusions about game development which was almost non existed in the other smbx discord servers that i was into which explains why for such a long time, i didn't have a clue how to mantain a good project. So in 2018 April, i changed some stuff about my project, it still was a mess but at least i knew what i wanted to do for the time being. I eventually got into my thrid burnout with the project which lead me to taking great decisions about my project. In August 2018 i took the decision to reduce the level count of my project, fix the mess that i planned and replace it with a plan which wasn't a mess. I finally knew what my vision of the whole project would be like after 1 year and 6 months of development. I still lack some skills such as creating graphics or making S tier levels but i know how i can improve to do that(well when i get the desire to do so because right now i am working on my project to have fun) and what i wanted to say is that, some people might not be blessed with the knowledge on how to create a good project when starting out and i decided to change my project multiple times until i found out what works best for me for the time being. I feel like smbx was not intented to be an engine for well(or to be exact, profesionnal) designed game but rather adventures we could create with our beloved nintendo characters(i mean we started our projects because we wanted to have fun, right?). However the community changed that overtime and now we are raising the standards of what its deemed good and what bad. Projects now are in being a bit hard to make because i feel like knowledge now defines how a project would go. If someone had a prior knowledge on how to design a game or at least have some good planning, he would be able to create a game which is deemed good. So as i said, not everyone started with the intentions to create a well designed game but the intentions could change overtime which yes, might make the development of the project longer because the whole project gets changed but if i managed to change my project over 5 times, then don't be afraid of changing yours.(i think my reply won't fit that much with the category of tips and tricks but at least it could show that some project start in one way and could end in another way)

[Emral]

tl;dr:
do yourselves a favour and follow the advice in the first post of this topic to avoid falling into the dev hell eri steered himself into

I could go into more points of the post into detail but everything i could say is reiterating on answers people already gave him on these points in codehaus and how they're not exactly right. Everything he says and points out in the post above can either be avoided or refuted by adhering to what is outlined in the first post in the topic.


I already know Eri won't be following the advice cause he "wants to finish his demo first". So for everyone else reading...


Please don't wait for your "demo" before starting to considerably think about what you can and want to accomplish. Make sure your project is fun from start to end and doesn't start draining your life energy after a while.

Don't be afraid to cut, reorganise, or even restart if things get messy and you aren't satisfied with your older work anymore. Cancelled projects are practice too that let you satisfy and drive up your own personal goals over time. Compare your skill to your own from 6 months ago. Keep track where you were and where you are.

Don't compare yourself to people with a decade more experience than you, because if your goal is to get good, you will easily outpace anyone you are looking up to at the time with enough dedication and a sane approach to your projects. If your goal is just to have fun, the first post should help keep you out of any life-draining traps on the way, since projects are a time and effort sink without a lot of payoff for a long time. I hope you'll manage to have fun.

[ThePieSkyHigh]

This is why I sometimes make spare levels.. And post them.

JUSS! Is on a slight break after the demo right now, but me and Surtur will start on it soon...

[Eri7]

Enjl i know that the dev hell was my fault because i wanted to continue expanding my project(make it for more than one people and try to improve it which led to burnouts, bad decisions and getting bad reputation in the community as a lazy person who ignores advices because his ego is too big and you can't argue with him) but even if you don't believe me and i am sure you won't, i am trying to make my project fun to play, why else would i still be working on it, i could have ended it one year ago when it was a mess and be done with it. I know what i want to accomplish, a story driven smbx episode which works! Also i admit that working on the project led me to unhealty life style and that's my fault for choosing this life style which might explain my bad reputation or you can just see it as a fake excuse. Also thanks to YOU and other people, i decided to cut around 160-170 levels from the planned levels, why? Because i realized that was just a crazy amount of levels, i am reorganizing my levels, i am removing unnecesary levels which are either not fun or just are actually unnecesary. I did cancel a project before, remember Super Bros Nova? It might have been waste of time but i learned something from it, i learned how to use smbx 2.0, i learned a least a little bit of luna lua and i learned what is the perspective of doing a small project instead. Here are my reasons to want to post a demo until i actually start learning/improving on stuff that i really need to improve on:
People will know how my episode would be structured.
People will try out a piece of the game and see if they like it, if they do then they will wait until the episode is finished.
Other people could be involved with beta testing.
I have been waiting for 2 years to post a "decent" demo.
I want to prove to others that my episode will be worth playing.
I will gain confidence and desire to start learning/improving on my flaws.
Look Enjl, this isn't really an excuse as to why i don't want to spend time improving. I know that because of your expierence, my project won't be fun for you to play. I already know that you are not going to give a chance to my project but i just wanted to say that i am not going to give up on my project and one day, just one day, it might be sooner or later, it doesn't matter, one day i will be able to prove you wrong(by that i mean, i will make a game that you would be able to enjoy, i know that sounds like a bit child-ish and naive but hey, i admire you and i want the time you spend helping me before to not go to waste) about my project but until that day comes, i am fine with you making my project as a example on how to NOT develop a game.

[Emral]

until that day comes, i am fine with you making my project as a example on how to NOT develop a game.

Regardless of what you do to your project, anything short of scrapping and rebuilding it isn't going to clear up the development mess. You fell into a lot of rookie traps with it, it's an excellent case study. Mind you that this implies nothing about the final quality, because given a large amount of time, anything can be turned out of any slump it finds itself in. As such, "that day" will never come for this project, because its development history is already the example.

one day i will be able to prove you wrong(by that i mean, i will make a game that you would be able to enjoy,

Going by your definition of me being unable to enjoy projects of newcomers (a false assumption), you would be proving my statement from the post above yours RIGHT, actually:

if your goal is to get good, you will easily outpace anyone you are looking up to at the time with enough dedication and a sane approach to your projects

For the record, The Great Empire 7 was a good time.

It might have been waste of time but i learned something from it

Anything you learn from is inherently not a waste of time, as long as you remember what you learned for the next time you do something similar.

Here are my reasons to want to post a demo until i actually start learning/improving on stuff that i really need to improve on

None of these make sense to me. Points 1, 2 and 5 especially seem like things that would benefit from a sooner acceptance of improvement. But you do you I guess.

[Eri7]

Going by your definition of me being unable to enjoy projects of newcomers (a false assumption)

I remember that you told me that you don't enjoy smbx episodes as much as normal games which makes me think that smbx episodes aren't that fun to you considering that most are badly designed.
And if i can't erase the history of my project i may as well let it be used as an example on how to not design a game, at least this fits with the topic and if my project helps other people, i am fine with that.
Also i expected a more harsh response from you(judging by the argument we had not long ago) so thank you for not "yelling" at me and sorta kinda giving me a small tiny chance to make something that you will have fun playing.

[PixelPest]

Please stop using this topic to blow of steam and rant about your shortcomings--that isn't what it's for

[Taycamgame]

Don't be afraid to cut, reorganise, or even restart if things get messy and you aren't satisfied with your older work anymore. Cancelled projects are practice too that let you satisfy and drive up your own personal goals over time. Compare your skill to your own from 6 months ago. Keep track where you were and where you are.

This. I had a project i made back in 2017 that goes under the name of MKA. I thought it was OK at the time, but after hearing reviews of levels and acknowledging my improvements over time, i decided it was time to restart from scratch. I decided to take a different approach to an episode - first, i had the idea of making an episode based in HUB worlds. I thought about how i could make this episode "flow", so in came the star collecting gimmick of the episode. As Eri7 asked, i then joined the Novaverse to put a bigger twist on the episode and it was at this point i realised i wanted to have a storyline for the game. After cancellation of the Novaverse, i just picked up from where i was and continued to develop the storyline further. Fast forward to now, and i have 3 demos completed (a fourth is coming soonish), i have improved further in level design and now have a much better understanding of level design concepts.

So, deciding to step away from my old project has done really well for me, it has allowed me to improve further and generally, it has been more fun than the first episode. As a result, i'd like to give a thanks to those who reviewed my old episode (Enjl + Pixelpest), and the support you gave me throughout because it has really helped me to get where i am today.

(Btw... i'm not sure if i should be saying this or am allowed to do so here... but as a side note, it would be neat if either of you two could check out my current project once demo 4 is out (improves older levels) if you have the time to do so. It would help out a lot as you have already seen my works in the past and you both know a ton about level designing, basically i would be interested to hear a "before-after" style thing. Do be aware that not all levels were made by me though.)

tl;dr Thanks for the support with my previous project guys, it has really helped me to become a better designer.

[erkyp3rky]

Eri, my best suggestion is to take constructive criticism.

[ThePieSkyHigh]

Can we add our own tips here? If so, I'd like to recommend this:

Everyone works differently, but please ffs don't make your project thread when you haven't even finished making your first level. I've seen this happen time and time again, and these usually end up getting shelved/cancelled. Look I get it, you're eager to show it off and that's fine, but if you can't prove you're far enough into making your episode, then you won't be able to prove you're committed to finishing it. So have patience. I personally would wait until you're at least a third of the way done before you announce it, but maybe that's just me. And it all depends on the scope of your project of course.

Some people make their project thread without even starting on the project.
It's usually like "I'm going to make this super amazing project with 9999 levels and it will be perfect, I need you to make levels for me".

But it would be locked if there are no screens, and if there is no information, I deem the project as non-existent and a troll

True, and it's very easy to get really good ideas, but implementing it is very hard so ideas get stored away into the endless "ideas that are cool but too hard for me" section, if you know what I mean.

Plus, once they actually know how to make a level, they either forget, or lost exitement for it, if you will.

tl;dr: True.

[J Hammy]

Here's something I'd like to mention: take breaks. It takes me a few days to fully make a level, and if I work on my project for a very long time, I get burned out and want to stop the project altogether. Maybe work on 1 level and take a break (It may vary how long it takes for you to get burned out). I also play other episodes to get ideas. It helps me understand what works and what doesn't work. Those are my ideas.

[Emral]

Here's something I'd like to mention: take breaks. It takes me a few days to fully make a level, and if I work on my project for a very long time, I get burned out and want to stop the project altogether. Maybe work on 1 level and take a break (It may vary how long it takes for you to get burned out). I also play other episodes to get ideas. It helps me understand what works and what doesn't work. Those are my ideas.

It's... complicated. Frequent breaks can be discouraging too because they might make you feel like you're putting off work. If you have your ideas written down you're usually able to act on those more quickly and adjust them as you go along. I've almost been working every day for the past 2 years on a project, thanks to having a solid plan. The only breaks I take are when I struggle to motivate myself to do a tedious task.

[Eri7]

This would seem like a weird question but is it ok if we help out with other's people projects to gain experience while pausing our project at the same time.
I have learned a lot of stuff these past 2-3 months while working on other projects that i would apply to mine but idk if other people could get the same effect.