Super Mario Bros. X Forums

whys bowser shooting fire from his fists

As a follow up, I asked for a reason the characters need to be so complex, since I've seen a LOT of people mention this. Instead I got a beautiful, well-written response basically telling me to go fuck myself.

but I'll definitely keep it in mind nonetheless should I begin to consider reasons for scrapping the project entirely.

the concept of criticism seems lost on you, m8.

Horikawa Otane wrote:

Ace wrote:

Horikawa Otane wrote:ok your concern has been noted thanks for contributing

Do you think patronizing people who voice legitimate criticism is cool? I'm not stupid, I can tell when I'm being patronized.

Your only contribution so far has been "idk if this will work, I think it's too fundamentally flawed and complex to ever be viable and I don't believe the open beta process can work." This isn't really something I can actually do anything with, nor is it something I agree with (and I know many people who share my opinion), but I'll definitely keep it in mind nonetheless should I begin to consider reasons for scrapping the project entirely.

Additionally, your concern regarding patronizing comments has also been noted.

"This isn't really something I can actually do anything with." You can, you're just choosing not to. That's fine, but don't try to reframe it as the detractors being unhelpful when really it's just your unwillingness to rethink your approach.

Horikawa Otane wrote:

Kuribo wrote:

Horikawa Otane wrote:
Your only contribution so far has been "idk if this will work, I think it's too fundamentally flawed and complex to ever be viable and I don't believe the open beta process can work." This isn't really something I can actually do anything with, nor is it something I agree with (and I know many people who share my opinion), but I'll definitely keep it in mind nonetheless should I begin to consider reasons for scrapping the project entirely.

Additionally, your concern regarding patronizing comments has also been noted.

"This isn't really something I can actually do anything with." You can, you're just choosing not to. That's fine, but don't try to reframe it as the detractors being unhelpful when really it's just your unwillingness to rethink your approach.

Then offer specific solutions to the goddamn problem. Just saying "make it better" does nothing? What am I supposed to do with that? What? Run Lua.MakeWarioCool()? Run Lua.MakeCharactersLessComplexInNonSpecificWays()? Like... Give me IDEAS. Give me realistic IDEAS to implement.

It's all well and good to spout theory, but unless you have practical suggestions it's worthless to me as a producer.

Will you accept suggestions from someone who doesn't have a thorough understanding of smbx coding? Will you accept suggestions that involve scrapping a lot of the gimmicks that have already been put in?

I'll give you suggestions but I would like them to be listened to, and for you not to spin it as me telling you to scrap the game as you did with Ace. Also keep in mind that it's my opinion and not something worth getting worked up over.

Horikawa Otane wrote:

qig wrote:

but I'll definitely keep it in mind nonetheless should I begin to consider reasons for scrapping the project entirely.

the concept of criticism seems lost on you, m8.

If Ace has actual suggestions, real suggestions, and not floating theory land stuff like 'make the characters less complex!' or 'make them better!' then I welcome them.

Making something more complex can be a challenge, but making something less complex doesn't involve much. If you really want specific suggestions I can give some. For Wario, removing lakitus and replacing it with that idea you linked to is already a lot better. It makes the character different enough to stand out from the others, and it actually fits with his character. In addition, there are benefits and detriments to using him depending on the level. Levels with more coins will favor him. This is a lot different than forcing a designer to design a level around Wario. With this concept, a designer can pretty safely design an episode and include Wario without worrying about him breaking the levels too much (maybe don't include the stopwatch, though, though; it can mess up a lot of stuff).
Since minions are hard to implement for Bowser, why bother implementing them? There are a few different angles you can take on Bowser. One of the obvious ones is just making him stronger at the loss of mobility. I know it's not really innovative, but did anybody even ask for massive innovation in the first place? For example, regular fireballs could be replaced by the fireballs that yoshi spits out when he eats a red koopa. With the tanooki suit, he could have a ground pound that combines the abilities of purple and yellow yoshis. With the hammer suit, he could throw hammers, (maybe bigger than Mario's), kind of like he does in the games. Again, this would make it so that there are actual benefits and detriments to using him depending on the level, while at the same time breaking a minimal amount of levels, while at the same time being simple to program (I would hope). Shouldn't the goal be to make as many characters usable as possible in any given episode? If someone wants to make episodes with characters that have super specific and weird abilities, then they can do so if they want by simply adding the code to their episode. Wario and Bowser and the rest of the characters shouldn't be blocked from 95% of episodes just because they are too hard to design around.

what the heck? save/load states?
that doesn't sound too appealing to me!
someone had better get working on removing that feature. PRONTO.

Horikawa Otane wrote:

Kuribo wrote: Will you accept suggestions from someone who doesn't have a thorough understanding of smbx coding? Will you accept suggestions that involve scrapping a lot of the gimmicks that have already been put in?

I'll give you suggestions but I would like them to be listened to, and for you not to spin it as me telling you to scrap the game as you did with Ace. Also keep in mind that it's my opinion and not something worth getting worked up over.

Ace literally said the project was too foundationally flawed to ever be viable. That, to me, is analogous to suggesting scrapping it.

Regarding your suggestions - I'll absolutely listen to them, but you need to understand this IS a two-way street. I don't HAVE to adopt anything you suggest, so don't get angry if I decide not to. We're allowed to disagree on things. But I'm very open to suggestion. Provided it's given in a respectful way and you are precise with your suggestions, I'm 100% okay with it. Like, I'd be super happy to get them actually haha.

Additionally, with your lack of knowlede/experience as to the engine, be aware that you may waste your time thinking of suggestions that are impossible to do. Feel free to ask what's possible and impossible though. Like I don't want either of us to waste our time with suggestions like that.

Fair enough.

Will edit some suggestions in here. I have to skim through the past few episodes first to refresh my memory.

EDIT:
So I tried to be as helpful as I could, but it may not seem that way because many of these tips come down to "remove this unnecessary/gamebreaking feature." Ultimately my opinion on what went wrong with these characters is that you guys tried to do too much, to the point that they feel out of step with the simplicity of a mario game. I apologize if this comes down on the wrong side of respectful and precise; at this point it's 1:30 in the morning, I tried my best, and I just want to put this out. I'm fully prepared to discuss and clarify anything and by no means do I expect you to implement any of these changes.

Rosalina
[*]I'm unsure of what should be done with her double jump. On the one hand, it's the only thing counteracting her infinite glide, which is her defining gameplay characteristic. On the other hand, her double jump, which basically equates to the height of a regular jump, has little meaningful impact on her gameplay besides making it annoying to advance vertically. I can't think of another way to balance her glide without overcomplicating it (please no more meters) or sacrificing its usefulness and/or making her a Peach clone. Frankly I have no useful suggestions about this right now, but I'm thinking about it.

[*]The fireball mechanic strikes me as a little too gimmicky (and potentially overpowered) to be gained from a basic powerup like the fire flower. I would give her standard fireballs and relegate the aiming mechanic to her hammer suit weapon, replacing the falling bombs (which seems naturally suited to Ninja Bomberman imo). The hammer suit is a more gimmick-appropriate powerup, and also more forgivable if it's a little overpowered.

[*]The invincibility mechanic... personally, I dislike this concept, and I think it crosses the line into gamebreaking. Some things can be designed around, but limiting coins so Rosalina can't just blast through everything with a starman does not sound like something designers will bother doing, and as a result Rosalina will be excluded from 90% of levels. Not to be too harsh but I would scrap this mechanic, unless there is a really good gameplay reason for keeping it.

Ninja Bomberman
[*]In light of what you said about being inspired by Meat Boy, I actually get what you were going for now. The choice to use the character Ninja Bomberman instead of a Mario character or even a Nintendo character is... not what I would have done, for better or for worse, lol. As previously mentioned, I would consider giving him Peach's bomb-dropping ability, perhaps by pressing a different button with the hammer suit. To me it just makes sense for a character called Ninja Bomberman to be able to drop bombs remotely.

Wario
[*]This first point is not the most important, but worth mentioning: Wario's graphics. His eyeless, mouthless face, as well as some of his animations (particularly his jump) look awkward. There's a thread in the graphics section with better looking Wario sprites, complete with all his powerups.

[*]Based on what gameplay we've seen, his clouds seem overpowered and unnecessary, and also what pushes him into "too gimmicky" territory for me. I have problems with the currency-based powerup system you've mentioned, though if you're considering it as a replacement for the clouds, I'm for it. Buying powerups seems slightly gamebreaking imo, but between the two I think it's more balanced as well as more character appropriate.

[*]I also question the necessity of the vegetables. I assume he gets them automatically when he's down to one hit, but he already starts a level with three POWs, and even without those he's no more vulnerable than Mario with one hit.

[*]Turning everything into coins with the tanooki statue is a little on the overpowered side, and also redundant because he has POWs which accomplish almost the same thing. It would also break his powerup-purchasing mechanic if that gets implemented.

[*]I know this has been brought up, but I do think the shoulder-charge should be implemented if at all possible. It's his iconic move, it's like having Peach without her floating ability. He's barely Wario without it.

Bowser
[*]As before, I have problems with his graphics. He looks clearly fan-made, when there are perfectly usable Bowser sprites from SMB3 (or, alternatively, I'm partial to this slightly edited version: http://mfgg.net/index.php?act=resdb&par ... 1&id=31694). His hud could also use improvements, with the icons in the middle being too small and high-res, the text on the side looking cluttered (and, to be honest, I'm not real clear on its purpose), and the minions that revolve around Bowser are, for some reason, high-res versions of the real enemies instead of just their actual sprites.

[*]The rotating enemy shield is an idea that makes some sense on a character level but I'm not sure works on a gameplay level. Based on what we've seen, it looks overpowered; raocow easily cruised through the level and would have only taken one hit had he not been invincible. Strengthening your shield by killing enemies is, as far as I can tell, fundamentally gamebreaking, plus if you have a projectile powerup they start lobbing projectiles everywhere. This is another issue I can't think of any way to balance. Need more input on this.

Horikawa Otane wrote:
To me, Bowser has always been about his minions. This was the concept of the shield. His physics are generally the same as Link's so currently he should be about the same as Link in terms of 'level access' so to speak. He has two hits and cannot recover health, so I intended him to be a more... Conservative character? You have all these tools, but you're ultimately VERY fragile. Again, I'm against utterly removing his shield powers, but I do think you make a good point regarding implementing his hammer ability from SMB1 Bowser. That would be realistic - I had issues finding a thing to do with Hammer Bros. Bowser so maybe removing that shield and giving him a SMB1 Bowser style short-range hammer rain would be a good balance to that. I also really like the idea of making him breathe the Yoshi fireballs. Could replace the fish shield with that. Should be reasonable to spawn it near his mouth too.

I would like tips for the ice though. I'm super cool with the Goomba shield and the Paratroopa shields (though open to replacing the goomba sprites since peeps had issues with that), but the ice one... That felt arbitrary to me when I made it. i just didn't have any ideas, really. It worked out okay I think, but... I'd be very interested in other ideas. Maybe Bowser breathes ice cubes? But then he might not be able to complete some levels that require you freeze enemies... Hmm...

if you really want to keep the goomba and koopa troopa shields, then yeah, I think the sprites should be changed to at the very least use 2x2 pixels. The shield concept seems confusing though, since from what i can tell, you have to pick up the powerup first before recruiting that specific kind of minion. If you have a fire powerup and kill a goomba, it doesn't convert it for whatever reason. Maybe make the leaf powerup not a shield, and instead just make it so that no matter what, certain enemies are always added to your shield if you kill them. It's tough though, because obviously not every level is going to have either of those (it should be possible to place a maximum though, if a level has a lot of them). That's what makes the shields really weird with the original implementation, though. If you have a level with no "bowser minion" enemies, then you can't regenerate your shield, which seems like something that level designers would have to design around and ultimately limit design choices. Or maybe that's not how it works. It's just kind of confusing overall. I feel like if you really don't want to get rid of shields, the best way to make them consistent is to make them independent of power ups.
As for the ice flower, maybe he could breathe 3 iceballs in a cone, kind of like how yoshi breathes 3 podoboos in a cone? Again, I'm not admitting to knowing anything about the engine, but seeing as how yoshi can shoot stuff at an angle, it seems like something that would be possible.

Horikawa Otane wrote:
Well, the way it is currently. Each shield has an associated class of enemies with it. So if you kill a goomba of any kind (including galoomba) you add a goomba to your goomba shield. Even if you're fire bowser. Koopas add to your koopas, fish add to your fish, etc. I had intended it to be sort of a 'hunting' mechanic to his gameplay. Kill specific enemies for specific shield parts.

All right, that makes more sense than what I was thinking. In rao's video though, I saw him kill some piranha plants without actually gaining any, which is why I was confused. And yeah, 1x1 pixels is a term that goes way back to the beginning of the SMBX days. I suppose lower resolution would be a better way to describe it.
Also I didn't necessarily say icy podoboos. They could just be regular ice balls, but it's really a matter of how strong you want to make it. My idea for the fire powerup was a big single fireball that travels in a straight line, but again it could be changed to 3 depending on how strong you want it to be.

I know you get a lot of requests, and by all means take your time. I would love to see a working Magikoopa in SMBX (IDK if someone already made this in lunalua) such as using magic to turn certain blocks into enemies and having it teleport near Mario wherever he goes in that certain section. Basically how a Magikoopa would act in SMW. I'm pretty sure it's doable with lunalua. I also think people could make some pretty creative levels with that npc. Anyway, just a suggestion. You can implement it only if you want to.

Horikawa Otane wrote:

PROX wrote:I know you get a lot of requests, and by all means take your time. I would love to see a working Magikoopa in SMBX (IDK if someone already made this in lunalua) such as using magic to turn certain blocks into enemies and having it teleport near Mario wherever he goes in that certain section. Basically how a Magikoopa would act in SMW. I'm pretty sure it's doable with lunalua. I also think people could make some pretty creative levels with that npc. Anyway, just a suggestion. You can implement it only if you want to.

for those wondering, you generate friendly rinkas and hit detection them with blocks

Don't the magic projectiles hurt you in SMW?

This may sound silly, but part of the argument that ensued here is the expectations attached to the characters involved. Like, Rosalina and Ninja Bomberman are great, because there are a myriad of ways to implement those characters without there being too much to quibble about. Wario and Bowser, with a specific set of known abilities, seem strange with the abilities you've given them instead... to some people. Simply taking your work and applying them to characters that don't have this baggage of expectation around them seems like a easy way of avoiding this without having to overhaul anything or throw too much away. Bowser doesn't typically punch fire, right? So I'm sure there's a character that would believably do that, though none honestly come to mind, except perhaps MegaMan, at least in the way the projectile is implemented. The shield is reminiscent of the various Shield weapons MegaMan has used as well so it's like you already have your foot in the door. (Though I have an honest feeling you've already done this and that we'll be seeing MegaMan soon, so this is probably moot.)

*shrug*

The cloud ability could go to Waluigi instead? Who is, again, a character who's never had gameplay of his own in a platforming game? I dunno. It's really hard to say anything until I've seen all the characters already, so it seems wise to just reserve judgement at this point. I can honestly say that if it were up to me, I'd focus more on making one or two really good characters with abilities properly fitted to them, put everything into that, rather than spread time across developing multiple characters in the first place, but that's probably not a very helpful thing to say at this point either. I'm sure you had your reasons. Maybe if I put a lot of effort into a certain type of function I'd want to implement it in different ways across different characters to get the most of out of it. I can see Ninja Bomberman and Rosalina both have a double jump, a downward glide, and have functions where they place an NPC at their coordinates. I'm not a programmer but I wouldn't be surprised if the coding between these were similar, allowing for time saved towards more characters than simply developing each character outright from scratch.

Either way, good luck.

My post has been edited with my suggested changes, and you'll see that I basically gave up by the time I got to Bowser. I'm too tired to think about it anymore, but tomorrow I'll gladly talk about it some more as well as whatever comes next in raocow's video.

I hope it's Sonic, Mega Man, and/or Samus.

I hope it's MECHDRAGON777

Enjl wrote:I hope it's MECHDRAGON777

He uses epileptic water and has rosalina physics

I really hope for Bill from Contra, It's my favorite game, and I loved to play him in SMB:C

Enjl wrote:I hope it's MECHDRAGON777

very gud character prediction 10/10
I hope the next playable character is valtteri

Darkonius Mavakar wrote:

Enjl wrote:I hope it's MECHDRAGON777

He uses epileptic water and has rosalina physics

X'D