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Valtteri wrote: It's a sad trend on the internet to trash feminism and women.

What the hell are you even talking? So trashing feminism = trashing women? We're trashing women because we say that there isn't a rape culture in the west and that things like mansplaining are sexistic and idiotic?

Bluigi wrote:

Valtteri wrote: It's a sad trend on the internet to trash feminism and women.

What the hell are you even talking? So trashing feminism = trashing women? We're trashing women because we say that there isn't a rape culture in the west and that things like mansplaining are sexistic and idiotic?

Trashing feminism=Nothing at all. I don't think feminism is much of a nessesity at this point. I mean, women should be able to speak for themselves without a movement of them.

practicalshorty014 wrote:

Bluigi wrote:

Valtteri wrote: It's a sad trend on the internet to trash feminism and women.

What the hell are you even talking? So trashing feminism = trashing women? We're trashing women because we say that there isn't a rape culture in the west and that things like mansplaining are sexistic and idiotic?

Trashing feminism=Nothing at all. I don't think feminism is much of a nessesity at this point. I mean, women should be able to speak for themselves without a movement of them.

Yeah, that's the funny thing. Women reduce themselves to found a movement for more rights for women.

Women HAVE all rights which men have in the West. Women have even more privileges than men nowadays. When a couple divorces, the wife almost always get the care of the children. When a woman gets raped, she will get help immediatly, nobody will ask her what she wore or how she looked at the moment she got raped. Women often get milder punishment in court than men, even if they did the same crime. Early in education, boys are taught NOT to hit women, but women are not taught not to hit men.

Anti-feminism is the thing we need in the West because women have equal and in some things even more rights than men.

Bluigi wrote:

practicalshorty014 wrote:

Bluigi wrote:
What the hell are you even talking? So trashing feminism = trashing women? We're trashing women because we say that there isn't a rape culture in the west and that things like mansplaining are sexistic and idiotic?

Trashing feminism=Nothing at all. I don't think feminism is much of a nessesity at this point. I mean, women should be able to speak for themselves without a movement of them.

Yeah, that's the funny thing. Women reduce themselves to found a movement for more rights for women.

Women HAVE all rights which men have in the West. Women have even more privileges than men nowadays. When a couple divorces, the wife almost always get the care of the children. When a woman gets raped, she will get help immediatly, nobody will ask her what she wore or how she looked at the moment she got raped. Women often get milder punishment in court than men, even if they did the same crime. Early in education, boys are taught NOT to hit women, but women are not taught not to hit men.

Anti-feminism is the thing we need in the West because women have equal and in some things even more rights than men.

The thing we need is nothing, really. Men still have as much rights as Women, and even some more than them. I should know, I live there, and I'm still scared of how much more rights guys have, but at least Women have rights at all. No need for feminism or anti-feminism.

practicalshorty014 wrote:but at least Women have rights at all.

excuse me but what the fuck

Spinda wrote:

practicalshorty014 wrote:but at least Women have rights at all.

excuse me but what the fuck

What, what's wrong? I said that at least women have rights, and that we don't really need feminism.

practicalshorty014 wrote:

Bluigi wrote:

practicalshorty014 wrote: Trashing feminism=Nothing at all. I don't think feminism is much of a nessesity at this point. I mean, women should be able to speak for themselves without a movement of them.

Yeah, that's the funny thing. Women reduce themselves to found a movement for more rights for women.

Women HAVE all rights which men have in the West. Women have even more privileges than men nowadays. When a couple divorces, the wife almost always get the care of the children. When a woman gets raped, she will get help immediatly, nobody will ask her what she wore or how she looked at the moment she got raped. Women often get milder punishment in court than men, even if they did the same crime. Early in education, boys are taught NOT to hit women, but women are not taught not to hit men.

Anti-feminism is the thing we need in the West because women have equal and in some things even more rights than men.

The thing we need is nothing, really. Men still have as much rights as Women, and even some more than them. I should know, I live there, and I'm still scared of how much more rights guys have, but at least Women have rights at all. No need for feminism or anti-feminism.

Seeing 3rd wave feminism splashing over from America to Europe, I think anti-feminism/anti-dumbness is a good thing

I think it's unfortunate that Feminism gets so much attention in the West now, when it is so unimportant. It's incredibly wasteful because it causes imaginary problems to be invented when real problems could be addressed.

Very briefly:

* There's no evidence that the gender earnings gap is a result of anything other than differences in behavior (e.g. tendency to negotiate higher pay) and lifestyle choices (e.g. preferred job) of men and women.

* There's no evidence that any aspect of society in any way encourages rape or sexual assault, or that either of these crimes are a result of any sort of sexism or misogyny.

* Stereotypes are not a problem. They're just a really flawed tool that is used on everybody, not just women, to make social interactions easier.

* What genitals or skin color politicians have is irrelevant. Female voters don't need to have female politicians. What they need, just like male voters, is politicians that represent their views on policy.

* What genitals characters in fiction have is irrelevant. If an artist wants to write a story with a male protagonist, she has a right to do so. If an artist wants to write a story with a female protagonist, she has a right to do so. If an artist wants to write a story with a mutant blob monster that doesn't have a gender at all, she has a right to do so.

* Gender roles and gender-based expectations are not a problem. Just because someone expects something of you doesn't mean you're forced to do it.

* Being mis-gendered is not a serious or systemic problem. If you think it is, you need to grow some thicker skin or try harder to present your gender in a way that's obvious, or preferably both.

* Gendered toys and toy sections are not a problem. Boys and girls like different things in general, so toy manufacturers target them differently.

* There is no such thing as a "pink tax". Funny thing about that: the cheapest razors I have seen are women's razors at the dollar store which come in packs of 10. But the reason women's products are often more expensive than men's products is because women generally prefer to spend more money. If you don't, the cheap stuff is there, and you can even choose the men's stuff if you want.

* Women are not exclusively targeted by Internet trolls. Everyone is trolled. What matters is how you react to it.

* Victims of rape being asked for details, specifically in an effort to prosecute the rapist, is not a problem; on the contrary, that's exactly what the police should be doing. You go to the police to seek justice, not counseling. Feminists raise an objection to this in a way that implies that the question is intended to dismiss the accusation, which is a nonsensical idea not supported by any evidence. However, what you wear does affect your chances of being sexually assaulted: if you dress conservatively, cover yourself up, act timid, etc, you make yourself look like an easy target, and that makes you more likely to be victimized. This applies to all people and all sorts of crimes. Dress in a way that makes you look strong and confident, and any potential criminal will think twice before targeting you.

I don't know if this has been said yet, and we're certainly not the only ones doing it, but we as a society don't take blame for anything. It's always those damn libtards turning America into a nation of crybabies, or fucking Dump is a misogynistic asshole and only white nationalist neo-nazis follow him, they're just a basket of deplorables.

There's no in between. There is no reasoning. There's only fingers being pointed. And yeah, Trump is definitely the poster child of this kind of mindset. I don't credit him for bringing it on as the media played a real good role in doing a horrible job at pretending to be neutral.

The biggest roadblock for me trying to say this is I really can't without sounding like a hypocrite and there's really no decent sources besides, well, just look on a media outlet's facebook page.

onpon4 wrote:* There's no evidence that any aspect of society in any way encourages rape or sexual assault, or that either of these crimes are a result of any sort of sexism or misogyny.

Statistically, women are raped by men more than any other combination of genders, which would indicate some kind of sexual bias.

Stereotypes are not a problem. They're just a really flawed tool that is used on everybody, not just women, to make social interactions easier.

Yes, they are not only used on women. However, I think stereotypes are bad in general, no matter who is subjected to them. It prevents individual experiences among (usually) historically marginalized groups from being seen. I used to largely agree with you, until I saw this TED talk which provided a lot of insight to me (this is one of the older ones before TED talks became shitty and overdone, and even if you disagree with it I think it's at least a high quality speech. It's also not specifically about feminism).

What genitals or skin color politicians have is irrelevant. Female voters don't need to have female politicians. What they need, just like male voters, is politicians that represent their views on policy.

It's a systematic problem, not an individual problem. A politician being male should not be a point against him in any manner. However, when there are so few female politicians throughout the (US) political system, it seems to speak to some kind of systematic distrust towards women in the political system or at the very least barriers towards becoming a politician in the first place if you're a woman.

What genitals characters in fiction have is irrelevant. If an artist wants to write a story with a male protagonist, she has a right to do so. If an artist wants to write a story with a female protagonist, she has a right to do so. If an artist wants to write a story with a mutant blob monster that doesn't have a gender at all, she has a right to do so.

Yes, but again, it's a systemic problem, not an individual problem. Complaining about a single movie/book/whatever not having a female protagonist is dumb. Complaining that most works don't have female protagonists is legitimate.

Gender roles and gender-based expectations are not a problem. Just because someone expects something of you doesn't mean you're forced to do it.

If everyone throughout your life is telling you you should live your life a certain way, it tends to have an effect on you.

Being mis-gendered is not a serious or systemic problem.

yeah it is, speaking as a trans woman. it sucks. like a lot. That said, I do think it's the person's responsibility to make their own gender clear, and I understand that it does not regularly present itself as a problem for the majority of the population

Gendered toys and toy sections are not a problem. Boys and girls like different things in general, so toy manufacturers target them differently.

Self-fulfilling prophecy - if advertisers only sell stereotypically girly toys to girls, then it reinforces the stereotype that girls like those toys and the cycle continues.

Women are not exclusively targeted by Internet trolls. Everyone is trolled. What matters is how you react to it.

Yes - everyone is trolled. However, if you're a girl, you're almost always trolled, or at least treated differently from everyone else. It may have been before you joined the community, but it was a meme in the SMBX community a few years ago that if you were a girl everyone would treat you extra nice and you'd become a staff member.

Victims of rape being asked for details, specifically in an effort to prosecute the rapist, is not a problem; on the contrary, that's exactly what the police should be doing. You go to the police to seek justice, not counseling. Feminists raise an objection to this in a way that implies that the question is intended to dismiss the accusation, which is a nonsensical idea not supported by any evidence. However, what you wear does affect your chances of being sexually assaulted: if you dress conservatively, cover yourself up, act timid, etc, you make yourself look like an easy target, and that makes you more likely to be victimized. This applies to all people and all sorts of crimes. Dress in a way that makes you look strong and confident, and any potential criminal will think twice before targeting you.

Rape is always wrong. Completely. Saying that someone should not have been wearing certain clothes if they didn't want to be raped is blaming them for being raped, when it is in no way their fault and rather the fault of the rapist for raping.

practicalshorty014 wrote:but at least Women have rights at all.

>Paraphrased: At least women have rights in the first place. / At least women have rights to fight over.
>Implying: They should be thankful they have rights.

I know this isn't what you meant, but if you're making English blunders as catastrophic as this, you need to slow down.

Bluigi wrote:Anti-feminism is the thing we need in the West because women have equal and in some things even more rights than men.

So you're going to counter a movement that consists of pushing back against the status quo by pushing back against the pushing back?

What do you expect to accomplish with that? How is that going to solve anything if feminism happened because people started pushing back against misogyny? You'll be even less than morally wrong, you'll just be doing exactly what some people in that group is doing: screaming at a problem to go away and just expecting it to get tired of you screaming and give up. Try not doing a screaming contest if you want a social problem to stop. Try actually thinking about the legitimate concerns they have. If you can't give that much of a damn and can only amount to slinging shit back, then you need to care more about that.

---

I'm going to be too cautious and I apologize, but I am going to warn the thread to not get too derogatory or negative with your opinions on these topics. I think the thread's doing just fine in offering insight and explanation on why these social problems exist, and it's quite productive; but please, do not antagonize movements like feminism. If I can substitute who you're arguing against with other social movements born out of a perceived inequality, and notice all you're arguing is "movement X shouldn't be bothering because X Y Z", then I'm sorry, but you're not helping either. Please don't stoop to their level. Don't just belittle the opposition.

Bluigi wrote:Anti-feminism is the thing we need in the West because women have equal and in some things even more rights than men.

Some of the worst things ever said on this forum. I strongly suggest you rethink your world views. You may deny the fact that women do not have equal rights but the statistics imply otherwise. http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple ... r-pay-gap/ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rvey-shows May I ask how it benefits you to fight a cause that strives for women to be treated equally to men, even if you think they already are? Are you affected by this cause in any notable way?

onpon4 wrote:* Gendered toys and toy sections are not a problem. Boys and girls like different things in general, so toy manufacturers target them differently.

Boys and girls like different things if these things are inflicted on them at an early age. There's no "genetic" cause to this. The only way to stop manufacturers from targeting like this is to simply get rid of the deeply rooted mindset of "that's how it should be" and thus making it unneeded for the manufacturers to target different genders.

onpon4 wrote:women generally prefer to spend more money.

This kind of weakly backed claims about women is one of the problems in our society and rightfully one of the things that feminism fights.

Statistically, women are raped by men more than any other combination of genders,

True. Also, statistically, men are killed more than women.

which would indicate some kind of sexual bias.

Untrue. We don't know the reason, but if we're going to speculate, I would speculate that it has more to do with the differences between the sexes, such as the fact that men are generally physically stronger than women, or the differences in male and female psychology. My speculation is no less valid than yours; neither has any evidence to back it up.

It's a systematic problem

You mean to say it's a systemic problem. These two words are not interchangeable. "Systematic" means that it is intentional, i.e. that you believe someone is guilty of actively preventing women from being politicians.

However, when there are so few female politicians throughout the (US) political system, it seems to speak to some kind of systematic distrust towards women in the political system or at the very least barriers towards becoming a politician in the first place if you're a woman.

That's what it seems like to you, but you have no evidence to support this conjecture. I have an alternative explanation that seems more reasonable to me: women just don't want to enter politics as much as men do. Until you can present some evidence of women who are interested in being politicians being prevented from doing so, my explanation is just as valid as yours.

Complaining about a single movie/book/whatever not having a female protagonist is dumb. Complaining that most works don't have female protagonists is legitimate.

This is a non-argument. It doesn't explain why complaining about a collection of unrelated works not being a certain way is reasonable.

If everyone throughout your life is telling you you should live your life a certain way, it tends to have an effect on you.

Yeah, but that's just life. There are expectations of everyone. It's not exclusive to women. These expectations are there for a very good reason: to ensure that you become a productive member of society. If you think your parents' idea of what that entails is wrong, it's on you to do what you think you should or want to do.

yeah it is, speaking as a trans woman.

No it isn't, speaking as a trans woman. Out of all the trouble you have to go to to transition, getting worked up over people continuing to call you "sir" or refer to you as "he" is silly. Most of the time it's just an unintentional slip-up, but even if it isn't, why do you care what they think?

Also, it isn't valid to use what you are as an argument. Being a trans woman does not make you any more or less correct about an issue related to trans women. The same applies to all forms of identity politics.

Self-fulfilling prophecy - if advertisers only sell stereotypically girly toys to girls, then it reinforces the stereotype that girls like those toys and the cycle continues.

You have no evidence for your implicit claim that this cycle is the only reason for the distinction. I don't have evidence for my claim either, so we're on even ground.

Yes - everyone is trolled. However, if you're a girl, you're almost always trolled, or at least treated differently from everyone else.

You don't have any evidence for that. Trolls target people who react, so I definitely believe that professional troll feeders like Anita Sarkeesian get trolled more often. That has nothing to do with their sex or gender.

It may have been before you joined the community, but it was a meme in the SMBX community a few years ago that if you were a girl everyone would treat you extra nice and you'd become a staff member.

I'm not familiar with that, but that sounds like a lighthearted joke which could just as easily apply to, say, people who like Naruto. Having a joke made about some aspect of what you are is not a problem.

Victims of rape being asked for details, specifically in an effort to prosecute the rapist, is not a problem; on the contrary, that's exactly what the police should be doing. You go to the police to seek justice, not counseling. Feminists raise an objection to this in a way that implies that the question is intended to dismiss the accusation, which is a nonsensical idea not supported by any evidence. However, what you wear does affect your chances of being sexually assaulted: if you dress conservatively, cover yourself up, act timid, etc, you make yourself look like an easy target, and that makes you more likely to be victimized. This applies to all people and all sorts of crimes. Dress in a way that makes you look strong and confident, and any potential criminal will think twice before targeting you.

Rape is always wrong. Completely. Saying that someone should not have been wearing certain clothes if they didn't want to be raped is blaming them for being raped, when it is in no way their fault and rather the fault of the rapist for raping.

I think everything I said which you quoted here went right over your head, because your response doesn't address a single point I made.

This kind of weakly backed claims about women is one of the problems in our society and rightfully one of the things that feminism fights.

You're right, I don't have evidence for my claim that women prefer to buy more expensive things. You also don't have any evidence that there is a systematic effort to make women spend more money than men. What I can prove is that cheap options exist. For example:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Suave-Natura ... t/10293512
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Equate-Twin- ... t/46309446
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Hanes-Women- ... t/52380575
https://www.walmart.com/col/Top-Rated-L ... n/47210594
https://www.walmart.com/ip/George-Women ... y/47301004

DarkMatt wrote:

practicalshorty014 wrote:but at least Women have rights at all.

>Paraphrased: At least women have rights in the first place. / At least women have rights to fight over.
>Implying: They should be thankful they have rights.

I know this isn't what you meant, but if you're making English blunders as catastrophic as this, you need to slow down.

Bluigi wrote:Anti-feminism is the thing we need in the West because women have equal and in some things even more rights than men.

So you're going to counter a movement that consists of pushing back against the status quo by pushing back against the pushing back?

Bluigi wrote: Seeing 3rd wave feminism splashing over from America to Europe, I think anti-feminism/anti-dumbness is a good thing

Bluigi wrote:

DarkMatt wrote:

practicalshorty014 wrote:but at least Women have rights at all.

>Paraphrased: At least women have rights in the first place. / At least women have rights to fight over.
>Implying: They should be thankful they have rights.

I know this isn't what you meant, but if you're making English blunders as catastrophic as this, you need to slow down.

Bluigi wrote:Anti-feminism is the thing we need in the West because women have equal and in some things even more rights than men.

So you're going to counter a movement that consists of pushing back against the status quo by pushing back against the pushing back?

Bluigi wrote: Seeing 3rd wave feminism splashing over from America to Europe, I think anti-feminism/anti-dumbness is a good thing

Isn't it a good thing to push back dumbness? Our world would need it

Stop multitposting Bluigi

Bluigi wrote:Isn't it a good thing to push back dumbness? Our world would need it

Nevermind that you just insulted me, and nevermind you did a fantatsic job completely ignoring what several people said.

You were literally just told the movement you're against was happening because of shortsighted solutions just like yours, and you're going to argue against me that that's a good thing?

I was hoping you wouldn't be so occupied with trying to win arguments that you wouldn't think about your own position, but if that's the case, please, drop the argument. We can discuss this without you.

DarkMatt wrote:

Bluigi wrote:Isn't it a good thing to push back dumbness? Our world would need it

Nevermind that you just insulted me, and nevermind you did a fantatsic job completely ignoring what several people said.

You were literally just told the movement you're against was happening because of shortsighted solutions just like yours, and you're going to argue against me that that's a good thing?

I was hoping you wouldn't be so occupied with trying to win arguments that you wouldn't think about your own position, but if that's the case, please, drop the argument. We can discuss this without you.

Somewhat of what I meant, we don't really need feminism. What we need are people who can prove their point. We don't need people who get involved in arguments and try to win them. Which is what feminism is and isn't. "Isn't it a good thing to push back dumbness? Our world would need it" This makes me think of this extremely rude statement, "Isn't it a grand idea to exclude mentally challenged people from being part of society? It surely won't mean much to me because they don't matter in life."

Men are still significantly advantaged over women in many practical situations of life. Feminism has its justification also in the western civilization. I don't even get why there's this much to discuss.

There's more important subjects. Racism. It makes me smh so many times and it gives me the shivers so many times. Equality before the law? Justice? HUMAN RIGHTS? Fiddlesticks. The US are in no position to claim being a paragon of these values.

Supershroom wrote:Men are still significantly advantaged over women in many practical situations of life. Feminism has its justification also in the western civilization. I don't even get why there's this much to discuss.

There's more important subjects. Racism. It makes me smh so many times and it gives me the shivers so many times. Equality before the law? Justice? HUMAN RIGHTS? Fiddlesticks. The US are in no position to claim being a paragon of these values.

I guess that means so much for "Liberty and Justice for all". But seriously, racism? Tell me more, I've gotten it almost every day for the past 10 years, and hear me out, there's nothing worse than getting ignored by other people in a group activity because you're the only black girl there.

practicalshorty014 wrote: Somewhat of what I meant, we don't really need feminism. What we need are people who can prove their point.

You're going to have to take the bad with the good like what we're doing right now. Getting to the root of the problem doesn't involve cherry-picking people, it involves sorting through the concerns and seeing which ones you can legitimately think and concern yourself with, and which is just empty air.

It's important to do this, because while quality is more important than quantity, they're not mutually exclusive. You only find the heart of the matter when you get a good size of people sharing the concern. The larger the group, the more likely the right people are going to be there and voice the opinion of many into one concise, perfect argument/request.

Course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't frown at people who don't think, or rabble rouse, or bandwagon. The way to deal with those people is to challenge them to think more, and if they can, you found a hidden gem. If they can't, you won't be the only one who thinks they aren't trying.