I'd like to say something about the state of the Level Judges.

[zlaker]

I find fun in the competition to try to get a high score. What's wrong with that?

The Level Forum is not for competition, it's for that users want feedback on their levels.

[PixelPest]

I find fun in the competition to try to get a high score. What's wrong with that?

The Level Forum is not for competition, it's for that users want feedback on their levels.

I never said it was solely for competition which is what you seem to be basing your arguments on

[zlaker]

Alright. Then removing the whole system shouldn't be an issue.

[aero]

You said if people don't like the competition that they can go to the other Casual Levels forum instead. It was implied.

[PixelPest]

Alright. Then removing the whole system shouldn't be an issue.

Just randomly throwing that in here makes no sense in the context I'm discussing in.

You said if people don't like the competition that they can go to the other Casual Levels forum instead. It was implied.

It's one aspect of the Levels forum that some people see and may not like. There's multiple purposes and opinions regarding the Levels forum.

[Zeldamaster12]

PixelPest, you literally said that if people don't like the competition, then they can go to Casual Levels. When people argued against your point, you change your words and say "oh no that's not what I meant, you guys must've misinterpreted it".

[aero]

The Casual Levels subforum isn't a containment forum for people who don't like parts of the Levels forum, it's for people who made a level for fun and nothing more or less.

[zlaker]

Just randomly throwing that in here makes no sense in the context I'm discussing in.

If the Level Forum was not for competition then what's the point of keeping the current system. It promotes more competition than sharing levels for fun.

[PixelPest]

PixelPest, you literally said that if people don't like the competition, then they can go to Casual Levels. When people argued against your point, you change your words and say "oh no that's not what I meant, you guys must've misinterpreted it".

And then I later specified that that's only one aspect obviously not viewed by everyone

[Valtteri]

what happened to those days when people just wanted share levels for fun?

The Level Forum is not for competition, it's for that users want feedback on their levels.

If the Level Forum was not for competition then what's the point of keeping the current system. It promotes more competition than sharing levels for fun.

Sorting levels by score doesn't suppress posting levels for fun in any way. I don't understand why you would think this.

PixelPest, you literally said that if people don't like the competition, then they can go to Casual Levels. When people argued against your point, you change your words and say "oh no that's not what I meant, you guys must've misinterpreted it".

But they did misinterpret it. He said it was for competition and people assumed he meant that it was solely for competition when he never said "solely". And what he said was completely true, too. I'm positive the Casual Levels section is for people who do not wish to participate in this game of trying to get in the highest category.

[Zeldamaster12]

I mean, there really isn't (or shouldn't be) competition in the Levels forum. You post levels to receive feedback and improve based on that feedback. I don't see what's so competitive about that. Yeah, you always want to shoot for the highest score you can get, but it's no competition.

[aero]

It's not even a competition if you think about it.

[Valtteri]

Yes, and to say that this game of shooting for the highest score somehow diminishes the fun in the equation, is foolish. If you can't take criticism, which I think is the only reason why being sorted would somehow ruin your fun, you will post your levels in the Casual Levels section.

[Cedur]

That "competitiveness" etc. is simply a matter of maturity in the end, and how serious you are about it. It would be the same if LJs score levels and sort them into categories, or if all users rate levels with stars.

This topic was usually supposed to ask how to make the LJ system more efficient overall, because the discontent and discussion around it is nearly as old as the community itself, isn't it?. What do you think about the suggestions I've listed at the bottom of page 18?

[Zeldamaster12]

Yes, and to say that this game of shooting for the highest score somehow diminishes the fun in the equation, is foolish. If you can't take criticism, which I think is the only reason why being sorted would somehow ruin your fun, you will post your levels in the Casual Levels section.

That's not what I said. Shooting for the highest score isn't a game, it's aspiring to be the best you can be. If your level gets scored low and the creator gets offended and upset rather than listening to the criticism, then that's the creator's problem, not the critics. Casual Levels shouldn't be used solely because the creator isn't mature enough to accept criticism.

[aero]

Maturity is a separate issue (and a discussion that will bear no fruit).

The problems that need to be handled is the state of the Level Judges, and the flaws with the system they operate under.

[Valtteri]

That's not what I said. Shooting for the highest score isn't a game, it's aspiring to be the best you can be. If your level gets scored low and the creator gets offended and upset rather than listening to the criticism, then that's the creator's problem, not the critics. Casual Levels shouldn't be used solely because the creator isn't mature enough to accept criticism.

I know you didn't say that. I was referring to the people who posted before you. And that is the only purpose of Casual Levels, like it or not. Unless you count SMBX 1.4 levels being posted there.

Anyway, I see the following possible solutions on making the level judging system more efficient and on clarifying how much of a moderating authority they should have (referring to the stuff of "they're picked primarily based on reviewing skills and based on for moderating skills" and "was bossedit really demoted for too much moderating" and alike).

• Try to always strictly review levels from oldest to newest, independently from an interesting title / a well known author or whatever would make you want to review a newer level first. That way it's avoided to have levels unreviewed for a month or longer.
• Not always just wait for people to apply themselves. If you see someone making quality reviews and giving reasonable scores / arguments, why not ask them yourselves if they want the position?
• Pay attention on when an LJ has made their last review, and demote them by default if it's way too long back (e.g. 3 months), or ask them directly if they're fine with being demoted.
• Clarify on how much skills on moderating an LJ must have. If they're not supposed to do any work of a normal admin / glomod, then just give them power to move and lock topics, that's all they need for the system. If they're supposed to be trusted moderators with a healthy attitude, rename them to level moderators and eventually rehaul the group entirely for once.

"Review from oldest to newest" is a rule that has been instated to the Level Judges long ago. If you notice this not being followed, notify a mod. Why are we not asking individuals to apply? We have enough volunteers to not come for them ourselves, and users who ask us first will probably be more motivated than people who we'd have to persuade. We have demoted level judges due to being inactive and do so today, but it's difficult to keep track of who's reviewed in the past say three months and who hasn't, so we're forced to be lenient in that regard. I'm aware that there are particular judges who haven't done anything in a long time and we will take action on that. However, this isn't high in our priorities, because someone idling in the level judge group is ultimately harmless as the forum software doesn't limit the amount of users in a group, so they aren't "taking up slots" or anything. Joey mentioned this recently in this thread. For your last solution, although the Level Judges are supposed to judge levels, moderating the forum is their secondary task. Being a moderator isn't as difficult as you're making it out to be. Any thinking person can do the tasks moderators have. They do not require any sort of degree or anything. People with bad attitudes and tendencies to power abuse do exist, but we do not hire these kinds of people in the Level Judge group either. About the name change, even though Level Judges are also (restricted) moderators, judging levels is their primary task and it only makes sense to title them after that.

[aero]

We have demoted level judges due to being inactive and do so today, but it's difficult to keep track of who's reviewed in the past say three months and who hasn't, so we're forced to be lenient in that regard.

All you have to do is view their post history. If they haven't posted at all in forever and/or haven't even been online in a long time, that's a two second task. If they have been online and do post, all you need to do is scroll to the last time they posted in the Levels forum with a review which ctrl+f can help with. It's quick and only has to be done every once and a while.

However, this isn't high in our priorities

High in your priorities or higher in the staff's and LJ's priorities? No matter which, what is supposed to be a priority?

because someone idling in the level judge group is ultimately harmless as the forum software doesn't limit the amount of users in a group, so they aren't "taking up slots" or anything.

It does because there's an unspoken limit on how many judges there can be which prompts some to say "we have too many" or something along those lines. If they're not truly taking up slots then there would be bunches of people being Level Judges and it wouldn't be an "overkill" amount. Oddly enough the other useless group, Level Designers, has more people and they don't even serve a proper duty for the forum.

[PixelPest]

It should definitely be clarified somewhere in the LJ forum that the oldest levels shoulf be reviewed first. I myself know I always do so, but many Level Judges don't and will judge levels by popular users or ones that look cool. Should we also disuade users from requesting reviews or just ignore it? And also, thanks for the clarifications Valtteri. Also AeroMatter, what you said makes absolutely no sense. You were just told there isn't a limit and then state that there is an unspoken amount of too many. Who even complains about there being too many LJs and even if they do, is their complaining really even valid?

[aero]

There's no limit to how many people can be in a group, but there's a point where there's "too many" Level Judges. What's hard to understand about that?