A Growing Problem on the Forums

[JupiHornet]

Why do new users try to make massive projects with that many levels?

I think that's because new users wants to make something as a standard Mario game.

Hang on. A standard Mario game has 8 worlds. I've seen one person go as far as something as crazy as 15. Surely a Mario game doesn't have 15 worlds, right?

Super Mario Galaxy 2 has 7 worlds, including world S. It also has 120 green stars, and 240 stars total. Maybe that kinda almost counts? :P

[HeroLinik]

Hang on. A standard Mario game has 8 worlds. I've seen one person go as far as something as crazy as 15. Surely a Mario game doesn't have 15 worlds, right?

Super Mario Galaxy 2 has 7 worlds, including world S. It also has 120 green stars, and 240 stars total. Maybe that kinda almost counts?

What I mean by "standard Mario game" is anything along the lines of the Super Mario Bros. series such as SMW or NSMB. But what you brought up about SMG2 is a valid point. Apparently due to the success of Super Mario Star Expedition, hub episodes have surged up in popularity, and the Super Mario Galaxy series follows in the vein of Super Mario 64 in that there's a hub. Some users try to be ambitious and copy the SMSE gameplay, but in reality it's hard to implement, and it also reduces the charm and interesting hub gameplay that SMSE once had.

[JupiHornet]

Valid point, but most episodes I've seen use the standard world map.

[mariogeek2]

I completely agree. I swear, I post a comment on a project thread just to see it bumped down 6 positions down the line just to see that half of more recent topics to be locked. Maybe we could have two subforums like MAJOR PROJECTS and MINOR PROJECTS. It's just a thought.

I know, right! That would make things so much easier.

Just because someone's new to the forums doesn't mean they're new to SMBX.

That's true, but when I said, "New Users" I meant people new to SMBX as this is usually the case.

What needs to be done is have a big reminder put up that newcomers, or anyone in general, should they decide to work on a project, make it as small as a collection of a few levels or maybe a few worlds, just not something as big as 8-9 long worlds. That and it might be a good idea for newcomers to go in as a group and design a short project together, which actually brings a contest idea I had to mind.

That is exactly what I said! I've been thinking. There should be a guide on the forums on how to make your first project.

[DarkMatt]

You are all talking about the nature of these crap levels instead of talking about how to curtail them. Stay on focus.

As for the people who say people have to post their levels to get good, let me tell you something: Do you think it's a good experience to make something, post it here, and then get laughed out of the building? Do you honestly think that's okay?

We SHOULD NOT do that, and that applies to levels as well as projects. We're taking innocent ideas and putting them through the grinder, expecting them to suddenly refine and improve. What we're doing is shooting down dreams and seeing if they can limp away. That's not a good thing. There's a nicer way to improve someone's idea than to kick them in the face and say, "You'll thank me later."

[Zeldamaster12]

Posting their levels from the beginning and receiving criticism isn't the only way that someone can improve in their level making, but it still is a way. I see the point you're trying to convey, but I don't necessarily see eye to eye. Nobody is going to hold your hand when you're making a level, they cannot see your computer screen. Yes, the person can ask for help, but unless the helper can actually see the level, the helper might not be able to point out each flaw that the person's level has, that way they can improve before posting.

I am going to use SMF as an example here. I know, SMBX is different, but the fundamentals of rating levels applies the same way for SMBX. I posted my first few levels on SMF, and they weren't rated very highly. Yes, I got a little aggravated at the rates, since my levels were a lot better in my eyes, but I still took the criticism and improved based on what others had told me. The same concept can apply here, the user just has to know how to take criticism.

But when rating, while the rate may be low on a new user's first level, it still shows criticism and states the flaws, along with where to improve in which aspect. The new user should use this rate to his or her advantage in order to improve in their level making based on what the rater has told the user.

Again, posting your first level and getting criticism isn't the only way to improve, but like I said, it is a way, and a common one at that.

[JupiHornet]

Posting their levels from the beginning and receiving criticism isn't the only way that someone can improve in their level making, but it still is a way. I see the point you're trying to convey, but I don't necessarily see eye to eye. Nobody is going to hold your hand when you're making a level, they cannot see your computer screen. Yes, the person can ask for help, but unless the helper can actually see the level, the helper might not be able to point out each flaw that the person's level has, that way they can improve before posting.

Online Mode lol

Aside from that, I agree with everything you're saying, as well as what DarkMatt said. Getting criticism won't always make you a better designer, especially if you can't take criticism.

[Zeldamaster12]

That's where users should know how to take criticism.

[DarkMatt]

Posting their levels from the beginning and receiving criticism isn't the only way that someone can improve in their level making, but it still is a way. I see the point you're trying to convey, but I don't necessarily see eye to eye. Nobody is going to hold your hand when you're making a level, they cannot see your computer screen. Yes, the person can ask for help, but unless the helper can actually see the level, the helper might not be able to point out each flaw that the person's level has, that way they can improve before posting.

I am going to use SMF as an example here. I know, SMBX is different, but the fundamentals of rating levels applies the same way for SMBX. I posted my first few levels on SMF, and they weren't rated very highly. Yes, I got a little aggravated at the rates, since my levels were a lot better in my eyes, but I still took the criticism and improved based on what others had told me. The same concept can apply here, the user just has to know how to take criticism.

But when rating, while the rate may be low on a new user's first level, it still shows criticism and states the flaws, along with where to improve in which aspect. The new user should use this rate to his or her advantage in order to improve in their level making based on what the rater has told the user.

Again, posting your first level and getting criticism isn't the only way to improve, but like I said, it is a way, and a common one at that.

If by common you mean lowest common denominator, then yes, it's a way. That doesn't mean it's our baseline. We should aspire to go beyond that.

And this is not about feedback, this is about getting the right board of criticism and the right ways of support. We can help users understand what they're doing and prepare accordingly. Furthermore, this is about us, not them. That's what this whole damn levels forum update is for.

You really just sound like you don't give a damn about your fellow man getting more lumps than he has to.

[Zeldamaster12]

I was just stating my viewpoint, no need to attack me over it. .-.

[DarkMatt]

I was just stating my viewpoint, no need to attack me over it. .-.

Well if I put down an argument and you stand right in the way of it do you think I'm going to set you aside and tell you to play nice?

I have a point to make here. I'm going to challenge your counterpoints.

[mariogeek2]

Posting their levels from the beginning and receiving criticism isn't the only way that someone can improve in their level making, but it still is a way. I see the point you're trying to convey, but I don't necessarily see eye to eye. Nobody is going to hold your hand when you're making a level, they cannot see your computer screen. Yes, the person can ask for help, but unless the helper can actually see the level, the helper might not be able to point out each flaw that the person's level has, that way they can improve before posting.

I am going to use SMF as an example here. I know, SMBX is different, but the fundamentals of rating levels applies the same way for SMBX. I posted my first few levels on SMF, and they weren't rated very highly. Yes, I got a little aggravated at the rates, since my levels were a lot better in my eyes, but I still took the criticism and improved based on what others had told me. The same concept can apply here, the user just has to know how to take criticism.

But when rating, while the rate may be low on a new user's first level, it still shows criticism and states the flaws, along with where to improve in which aspect. The new user should use this rate to his or her advantage in order to improve in their level making based on what the rater has told the user.

Again, posting your first level and getting criticism isn't the only way to improve, but like I said, it is a way, and a common one at that.

Yes, that is a good point, but since there are so many new users coming onto the forums, the level reviewers are always working to get them reviewed and moved to a level subforum. And since most of the new users' levels suffer from most of the same flaws, it would save the level reviewers a whole lot of time and effort if there was a topic explaining what NOT to do in a level when starting out making levels for new users/users new to SMBX instead of the level reviewers reviewing each individual level and explaining the flaws in each level topic.

[Zeldamaster12]

I was just stating my viewpoint, no need to attack me over it. .-.

Well if I put down an argument and you stand right in the way of it do you think I'm going to set you aside and tell you to play nice?

I have a point to make here. I'm going to challenge your counterpoints.

There are better ways to put your point across than being rude like that and saying things like I "don't give a damn about my fellow man getting more lumps than he has to".

Did you see the part where I said that there are other ways than this? I wasn't saying that it was the only way, but it is still a way. I was just stating that in my opinion, it was a good way. Yes, I don't see eye to eye on your argument, but I'm not going to be rude to you about it, so treat me the same, please.

[DarkMatt]

People say things like that to me all the time. (DM's an asshole, DM's a bad mod, DM's rude) Why do you think I don't act like how you're acting right now ever? Furthermore, I am not pacified by you attempting to say "Well I see what you mean, but I don't agree with you?" That doesn't mean you can hold your opinion. I'm still going to challenge it.

But enough circlejerking. If you wanna continue this, you should really PM/query me.

[Zeldamaster12]

Have I ever called you any of those things? No, so I don't appreciate you treating me with disrespect like you just did.

I read your post containing your viewpoint, then I posted based on my viewpoint, then you go on about how you think I don't care if someone has to go through more than he or she has to. That was rude to assume that about me, because it's untrue. I know, you have a right to provide a counterargument, but being so disrespectful is really unnecessarily.

[DarkMatt]

All's fair in love and war.

But enough circlejerking. If you wanna continue this, you should really PM/query me.

[icemario12]

How are users going to improve if they don't post their levels and receive constructive criticism? I get the point you're trying to make, but I don't agree with it. I guarantee more than half of the prominent SMBX users made mediocre levels at first, but improved due to receiving criticism, and look at them now. How is someone, especially new to the editor, going to improve if they don't post their beginning levels and receive criticism on them? They aren't.

I totally agree.

[HeroLinik]

The thing is, it's not the fact that they make comparatively bad levels in the first place. A lot of people here make much better levels, and as a result, they criticise the levels too harshly just because they're not used to seeing levels of this quality. What we shouldn't do is say "no CGFX, linear, no coins, no BGOs - 0/10" as it actually discourages them from returning to the SMBX community and posting their levels if they expect to see the same feedback. Do they know what CGFX are? Do they know how to place BGOs? Not exactly. The best thing to do is approach it as though you're a new user as well, and don't compare it to really good levels, but actually compare it to the standard newbie level, and not be too harsh to them.

[Shadow Yoshi]

The only real problem that I see with the Projects forum is that people post projects with 15 worlds and 1 screenshot. We need to make rules that project aspirations should be realistic and that screenshots should be of multiple different levels.

[Black Mamba]

The only real problem that I see with the Projects forum is that people post projects with 15 worlds and 1 screenshot. We need to make rules that project aspirations should be realistic and that screenshots should be of multiple different levels.

Like 1 screen for each announced world? That would work. I think.