I know this is an age-old question, but...

[Mable]

So it's better to have good graphics and bad gameplay over bad graphics and bad gameplay but not having good graphics and good gameplay?

[zioy]

So it's better to have good graphics and bad gameplay over bad graphics and bad gameplay but not having good graphics and good gameplay?

That's not what I said. Good graphics and good gameplay is the best, obviously. Please stop trying to manipulate what I said.
Basically
Good graphics and good gameplay > Bad graphics and good gameplay > Good graphics and bad gameplay > Bad graphics and bad gameplay

It's not that hard to understand.

[HeroLinik]

[Good graphics and good gameplay > Bad graphics and good gameplay > Good graphics and bad gameplay > Bad graphics and bad gameplay

It's not that hard to understand.

Yeah, quite a number of beginner level designers seem to fall into this trap of thinking that just because a level has CGFX, it's automatically good. Not always. Those level designers often get distracted by those cool CGFX that the level gameplay starts to suffer, and it ends up as a boring, badly-designed level. Gameplay > graphics.

[DarkMatt]

And that's just the beginning. Obviously not everyone agrees with you.

If they did, I wouldn't have an argument, now, would I?

My graphical choices are well thought out, not quickly thrown together. I'm sorry you don't like them, but like I said above, most people do like my graphical choices.

@Darkmatt: SM7's CC8 level was a mess? If you define big variety of BGOs that look actually amazing together as mess then your ideal of a perfectly-decorated level sounds like it's completely bland and boring. Also, I don't comprehend what point you were trying to make with a bulky looking smartphone.

If I just hand you buckets of paint and tell you it looks good, do you just give me a thumbs up and then splatter them against the canvas? You either know how to appeal to our glorious judges or you have a very wrong definition of beautiful art styles. As mentioned before, omeone used Supermario7's graphics in the same contest and I still like the aesthetics of that better than yours. It used less to deliver more. I remember that level a whole lot more than Supermario7's and not because it had a broken boss. It knew where to stop, unlike our glorious fifth tier levels, which never did.

Our community (I say community but I really mean our fanbase.) is really bad at understanding how every piece of the theme fits together. It's like if you take them to view, say, Napoleon Crossing the Alps, they'll say "Well that's a Napoleon." and then move on to look at some comics. Where the point was to look over the painting up and down and notice all the finer details and messages, our community cares more about having a painting just have a thousand different pretty things instead of just a couple that synergize well.

To drive the point home, one of the reasons why Emral won the contest was because he managed to do this where our 2nd and 3rd place winner didn't. Our judges aren't so bad that they can't notice what's better and what's not, but they sure do prioritize graphical variety over level functionality.

It's harder to dodge a spiny when your walking up a hill and it's coming down than it is to dodge one on a flat stretch of blocks. I don't see anything wonky about that.

Sounds like you hate the player then. Coming from a guy who makes hard levels, that's something.

Okay sure yes that's very true and you can do that just fine but my point was slopes don't just magically work to make a level harder and you can cause some unpleasant experiences to happen involving momentum and enemy placement.

I consider nonlinearity as anything that makes the player go in a variety of directions to complete the level. That could mean forcing the player to backtrack or explore. It could also mean having a section that has a single path, but that path zigzags up, down, right, and left.

Ergo, you love making the player go through shit he may or may not want to go through again. You've just demonstrated you really don't think about nonlinearity, instead you just think about how to appeal to the judges.

And finally,

If you continue to talk about him he'll make you look like an ass. (Not that you are) I've seen him do this before I joined this forum.

I am an ass though.

This is a true statement. This is why I like it when Kyo posts in threads like this.
Kyo get on chat sometime.

[Darkonius Mavakar]

i think shigeru myamoto once said
"gamers will like a bad game as long as the presentation is good"

sounds off-topic, but if you think about it, it fits this situation.
i think.

[SuperMario7]

If I just hand you buckets of paint and tell you it looks good, do you just give me a thumbs up and then splatter them against the canvas? You either know how to appeal to our glorious judges or you have a very wrong definition of beautiful art styles. As mentioned before, omeone used Supermario7's graphics in the same contest and I still like the aesthetics of that better than yours. It used less to deliver more. I remember that level a whole lot more than Supermario7's and not because it had a broken boss. It knew where to stop, unlike our glorious fifth tier levels, which never did.

Our community (I say community but I really mean our fanbase.) is really bad at understanding how every piece of the theme fits together. It's like if you take them to view, say, Napoleon Crossing the Alps, they'll say "Well that's a Napoleon." and then move on to look at some comics. Where the point was to look over the painting up and down and notice all the finer details and messages, our community cares more about having a painting just have a thousand different pretty things instead of just a couple that synergize well.

To drive the point home, one of the reasons why Emral won the contest was because he managed to do this where our 2nd and 3rd place winner didn't. Our judges aren't so bad that they can't notice what's better and what's not, but they sure do prioritize graphical variety over level functionality.

I honestly like more graphical variety than less. That's my opinion on what a beautiful SMBX level should look like, and just because it doesn't align with your opinion doesn't mean it's the wrong definition of a beautiful art style. I also know that the judges, as well as much of the community (or fanbase, if that's what you want to call it) likes levels with more decoration and more variety. So yes, I appeal to them in that way. But of course I'm going to appeal to people, it doesn't make any sense not to, especially when what appeals to those people is also what appeals to me.

Sounds like you hate the player then. Coming from a guy who makes hard levels, that's something.

Okay sure yes that's very true and you can do that just fine but my point was slopes don't just magically work to make a level harder and you can cause some unpleasant experiences to happen involving momentum and enemy placement.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Ergo, you love making the player go through shit he may or may not want to go through again. You've just demonstrated you really don't think about nonlinearity, instead you just think about how to appeal to the judges.

I think about what's going to make the level fun for people, and because I don't think it's fun to spend five minutes searching through a level for the pipe to the next section, I assume most other people won't find it fun either. That's why I make my levels straightforward.

[zioy]

To be honest, the point about "pleasing the judges" could be a moneyball approach to level design. Essentially, a designer could research what aspect of design each of the judges tend to rate higher than other aspects and appeal to it, although it would make an entire research project out of making a contest level.

My CC9 level was literally made out of boredom, then spiced up for CC9.

[DarkMatt]

I also know that the judges, as well as much of the community (or fanbase, if that's what you want to call it) likes levels with more decoration and more variety. So yes, I appeal to them in that way. But of course I'm going to appeal to people, it doesn't make any sense not to, especially when what appeals to those people is also what appeals to me.

You sound more like a sellout than a level designer.

I'm sorry, but it's apparent you don't seriously pursue your craft. You just do what people like.

[SuperMario7]

I also know that the judges, as well as much of the community (or fanbase, if that's what you want to call it) likes levels with more decoration and more variety. So yes, I appeal to them in that way. But of course I'm going to appeal to people, it doesn't make any sense not to, especially when what appeals to those people is also what appeals to me.

You sound more like a sellout than a level designer.

I'm sorry, but it's apparent you don't seriously pursue your craft. You just do what people like.

I make levels the way I like them best. To be completely honest, my favorite levels of all time are my own. I make levels how I think they should be made, and there's nothing forced about my design style. I don't know why you would say that, but it's not true at all.

[zioy]

I also know that the judges, as well as much of the community (or fanbase, if that's what you want to call it) likes levels with more decoration and more variety. So yes, I appeal to them in that way. But of course I'm going to appeal to people, it doesn't make any sense not to, especially when what appeals to those people is also what appeals to me.

You sound more like a sellout than a level designer.

I'm sorry, but it's apparent you don't seriously pursue your craft. You just do what people like.

To be honest, I'm with SM7 on this one.

[DarkMatt]

I also know that the judges, as well as much of the community (or fanbase, if that's what you want to call it) likes levels with more decoration and more variety. So yes, I appeal to them in that way. But of course I'm going to appeal to people, it doesn't make any sense not to, especially when what appeals to those people is also what appeals to me.

You sound more like a sellout than a level designer.

I'm sorry, but it's apparent you don't seriously pursue your craft. You just do what people like.

To be honest, I'm with SM7 on this one.

Well there's no point to be made here. All I've done was given his practice a label. An unsightly label, but that's the exact sort of person half of this community does not like, myself included.

Outright admitting SuperMario7 goes for what the community wants shows me his skill roof. I know exactly how much time and effort he is going to ever spend: and that's whatever it takes to get first prize. Not, say, experimenting and having an understanding of what makes mario levels fun, no that doesn't win contests. That practice has never been the fast track to winning popularity anyway. This isn't me saying "He's a bad level designer," this is me saying "SuperMario7 doesn't put any heart in his level design," followed by "The fact that he's winning contests and setting the standard is deplorable."

There are plenty of ways to break this cycle. The easiest would be we know what a good level makes, why aren't we awarding more points to levels that has better gameplay than aesthetics? Someone posted a good tier list but I'll just paraphrase: gameplay takes precedence, then a good theme. If there's inadequate gameplay then aesthetics is what's left. If there's neither then it's a garbage level.

But yeah, I do not mind people doing this anywhere else. Like, it is, in fact, a winning strategy, and our game companies and businesses do this all the time; that is, give what the "people" wants. But must you seriously fucking do this with a hobby like making Mario levels? This isn't even really a contest, so is there any reason why you have to treat just finding out how platformers are fun a business? I mean holy shit.

[Superiorstar]

I make levels the way I like them best. To be completely honest, my favorite levels of all time are my own. I make levels how I think they should be made, and there's nothing forced about my design style. I don't know why you would say that, but it's not true at all.

[DarkMatt]

JUST A QUOTE

Question: Are you implying you agree with him, or are you implying how badly that hurts his reputation?

Also don't do this.

[Superiorstar]

Question: Are you implying you agree with him, or are you implying how badly that hurts his reputation?

Also don't do this.

I am Implying that he doesn't care what you think about his level design, for he cares only for the fact that his levels are what he wants them to be.
He thinks his levels should be the way he wants, and you can't change that about him. And you shouldn't be the one to flame, His Contest level got higher than yours did.

[zioy]

To be honest I design my levels off community standards, but that doesn't imply in any way that I make them simply for the ratings.

[Shadow Yoshi]

I am Implying that he doesn't care what you think about his level design,

DarkMatt wasn't taking a jab at SuperMario7's level design. He was stating his opinions about it.

for he cares only for the fact that his levels are what he wants them to be.

Just because his levels are the way he wants them to be doesn't mean we can't criticize them.

He thinks his levels should be the way he wants, and you can't change that about him.

Nobody is trying to "change SuperMario7". DarkMatt is just pointing out that there's more to level design than pleasing the crowd.

And you shouldn't be the one to flame,

Nobody is flaming.

His Contest level got higher than yours did.

This is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[DarkMatt]

8:58 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: >reading through the thread
8:58 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: >"my favorite levels of all time are my own"
8:58 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: ...
8:58 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: 0 points for humility
8:59 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: 0 points for modesty
8:59 PM - DarkMatt: wait
8:59 PM - DarkMatt: wait
8:59 PM - DarkMatt: who said that
8:59 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: 0 points for considering yourself the sk
8:59 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: sm7
8:59 PM - DarkMatt: oh yeah
8:59 PM - DarkMatt: I probably should point that out as well
8:59 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: 0 points for considering yourself the skill cap of fucking mario design.
8:59 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: your self fucking praise
8:59 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: is forced
8:59 PM - DarkMatt: hence why I got the perfect label for him
8:59 PM - DarkMatt: SELLOUT
8:59 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: which makes your design style forced because you refuse to accept that someone may be better than you
9:00 PM - DarkMatt: 2 people
9:00 PM - DarkMatt: one of who I like more than this clown
9:00 PM - DarkMatt: but still
9:00 PM - DarkMatt: I cannot fucking believe
9:00 PM - DarkMatt: how much of a sellout this fucker is
9:00 PM - DarkMatt: like
9:00 PM - ΓThatRandomGuyΓ: he's pretty fucking sellout, yeah
9:00 PM - DarkMatt: holy shit

---

To be honest I design my levels off community standards, but that doesn't imply in any way that I make them simply for the ratings.

This is not about choosing to sell out. Intentional or not, I can hazard a guess that you haven't thought about what actually makes a level good. Your knowledge is second-hand, and you are perfectly fine with that. Therefore, I can conclude that you do not take your level design anywhere near seriously.

Going for what the community wants proves your lack of artistic talent. What you are doing is looking at what's been done before you and shamelessly basing your ideals off not even others, but the lowest common denominator. It's not creativity if you do what Sony/Microsoft did and try stealing the "golden" gimmick that is the Wiimote from Nintendo to use to sell your own consoles. That is what you and SM7 is doing right now: showing how little heart, innovation, and knowledge you have.

Again, I cannot believe this is what our better level designers have for their philosophy. No wonder our levels are assbackwards like the rest.

[Kyo]

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with designing a level for people to like as long as you stay loyal to your own design style, and that's exactly what SM7 is doing. His design style is EXTREMELY unique, I can't find any designer here that has a design style identical to his. He simply found out that a big variety of background objects looks quite good, and the community found it to be beautiful as well. That's why he continued, that's how he found his own design style, something to be proud of.

According to your definition of sellout, isn't anyone that is considered a great designer a sellout? All of them design their levels according to the community's standards. They do it just like SM7. Am I a sellout too because I purposely design levels for the community to enjoy? I do maintain my design style after all.

Also, sorry for being a killjoy here, but please keep those logs for yourself. You are going further than criticizing. At this point it just leaves the impression that you are either overly proud on your opinion or fail to accept the opinion of others.

[Shadow Yoshi]

isn't anyone that is considered a great designer a sellout? All of them design their levels according to the community's standards.

"Considered" is the key word here - the community vision on great levels has plenty of subjectivity.

[Kyo]

isn't anyone that is considered a great designer a sellout? All of them design their levels according to the community's standards.

"Considered" is the key word here - the community vision on great levels has plenty of subjectivity.

I didn't know people have opinions