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Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 4:51 pm
by Kyo
Sure it's fine to give someone an extra point if the designer did put effort into a handmade tileset, after all the aesthetics are a quite important thing, and I do consider it as fair to rate a good-designed level with amazing aesthetics higher than a good-designed level with standard graphics, but I wouldn't say it's okay to rate the first one like, 5 higher than the second. It's nice to point good aesthetics out, but you shouldn't forget the design in my opinion. The most important thing in a level for me is the design, second being the gameplay, and the third one would be the aesthetics (and fourth music if anybody cares), so an amazingly designed level is better than a bad-designed level with an epic tileset that causes each player to get instant eyegasm. But in a screenshot a level with a good tileset will always get more attention than a level without, because it's difficult to show good design in a screenshot sometimes.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 8:51 pm
by DarkMatt
Aesthetics make half the level. The other half goes to gameplay.
What else is there to a level?
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 11:04 pm
by Delete if Allowed 2
DarkMatt wrote:Aesthetics make half the level. The other half goes to gameplay.
What else is there to a level?
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 4:40 am
by Kyo
DarkMatt wrote:Aesthetics make half the level. The other half goes to gameplay.
What else is there to a level?
Are you seriously implying that the design doesn't matter at all?
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:22 am
by HeroLinik
My signature never lies. It is true. I have seen people who try to mask their crappy level design (not naming anyone) by using cool custom graphics. But as a whole, it's still the same level, whether you used bogstandard SMW cave tiles, or some cool custom forest tiles, but the gameplay is still the same. That's what matters. It's about the design and gameplay, not about the graphics.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:44 am
by silent_
castlewars wrote:My signature never lies. It is true. I have seen people who try to mask their crappy level design (not naming anyone) by using cool custom graphics. But as a whole, it's still the same level, whether you used bogstandard SMW cave tiles, or some cool custom forest tiles, but the gameplay is still the same. That's what matters. It's about the design and gameplay, not about the graphics.
I can't believe you'd say that, castlewars, but you used to (or even probably still do) criticize levels and take points off if they didn't have custom graphics.
And guys (this isn't directed entirely at castlewars but rather every single person in the community), gameplay is how you feel when you play a game, right? So if there's SMW bushes in a Metroid level, a SMB2 trees in a SMB1 bonus area, or even a gray factory tileset with blue stuff everywhere, you feel like you're in an awkward atmosphere. I, for one, think that game-mixing (or palette-mixing) is hideous, so I take points off of it (and a lot of them). Graphics are an essential aspect to a level, and is the third most important category.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:14 am
by zlaker
1.) When you're reviewing a level you should focus on the gameplay, level design and atmosphere.
2.) We're talking about when a level doesn't have any custom GFXs. No clashes or anything. Just a simple level with no custom GFXs. The exams you just used was not even needed
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:28 am
by silent_
Ice wrote:1.) When you're reviewing a level you should focus on the gameplay, level design and atmosphere.
2.) We're talking about when a level doesn't have any custom GFXs. No clashes or anything. Just a simple level with no custom GFXs. The exams you just used was not even needed
atmosphere=graphics=aesthetics
technically the same thing
If the tileset needs recolored, that's an issue with the atmosphere, graphics, AND aesthetics. If there's clash, that's an issue with all three of these things too. Also, no, we're not talking just about levels that have to custom graphics. You brought up your tileset needing to be recolored, castlewars brought up it's not about the custom graphics, it's about how you used them.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:46 am
by HeroLinik
Kep wrote:I can't believe you'd say that, castlewars, but you used to (or even probably still do) criticize levels and take points off if they didn't have custom graphics.
That statement in my signature didn't just come out of nowhere. It originated after reviewing many levels which had a lot of clash, one example Thwomps being in a forest level. After playing and reviewing them I realised I was using that phrase so many times to the level creators in that it became a signature phrase. And no, I'm not criticising levels that have got no custom graphics, so that statement is not, at its fullest extent, ironic. The idea is that if there are no custom graphics, and if it's used in the right way, then it will look more like the "classic" SMBX in the days before custom graphics. But if they're just spammed everywhere when custom graphics would be more appropriate, then I would start marking down on that.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:50 am
by Kyo
Kep wrote:Ice wrote:1.) When you're reviewing a level you should focus on the gameplay, level design and atmosphere.
2.) We're talking about when a level doesn't have any custom GFXs. No clashes or anything. Just a simple level with no custom GFXs. The exams you just used was not even needed
atmosphere=graphics=aesthetics
technically the same thing
Atmosphere is completely different from aesthetic or graphic. Aesthetic is a necessary aspect to convey a good atmosphere.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 9:58 am
by zlaker
Kep wrote:Ice wrote:1.) When you're reviewing a level you should focus on the gameplay, level design and atmosphere.
2.) We're talking about when a level doesn't have any custom GFXs. No clashes or anything. Just a simple level with no custom GFXs. The exams you just used was not even needed
atmosphere=graphics=aesthetics
technically the same thing
If the tileset needs recolored, that's an issue with the atmosphere, graphics, AND aesthetics. If there's clash, that's an issue with all three of these things too. Also, no, we're not talking just about levels that have to custom graphics. You brought up your tileset needing to be recolored, castlewars brought up it's not about the custom graphics, it's about how you used them.
Does not make sense at all. GFXs doesn't affect the gameplay or the design. If it's a clash or doesn't fit, then I can understand. But even if it's not styled, recolored or revamped does that even affect the level design or gameplay? No!
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:14 am
by silent_
Ice wrote:Does not make sense at all. GFXs doesn't affect the gameplay or the design. If it's a clash or doesn't fit, then I can understand. But even if it's not styled, recolored or revamped does that even affect the level design or gameplay? No!
You're right, graphics DON'T have anything to do with gameplay or design. However, they DO have to do with aesthetics and atmosphere, two categories essential for judging a level.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:24 am
by zlaker
That's what I've been saying all the time
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 2:21 pm
by DarkMatt
Kyo wrote:Are you seriously implying that the design doesn't matter at all?
That's part of aesthetics.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:49 pm
by Fuyu
DarkMatt wrote:Kyo wrote:Are you seriously implying that the design doesn't matter at all?
That's part of aesthetics.
I have to agree there, but at the same time disagree.
Gameplay is a personal feeling the player feels while playing the level, or if you'd like a rather better concept of it, gameplay is the pattern defined through the game rules, connection between player and the game, challenges and overcoming them, plot and player's connection with it. Design refers to the general structure of the level in hand, while Graphics, AKA (at least for you all) aesthetics are just visual adds, that tend to make the level look better, but that's as far as it gets regarding its importance.
In the end, what truly matters' the gameplay, seconded by design, and THEN comes graphics. There's no turn around for this order.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:13 pm
by DarkMatt
Natsu wrote:I have to agree there, but at the same time disagree.
Gameplay is a personal feeling the player feels while playing the level, or if you'd like a rather better concept of it, gameplay is the pattern defined through the game rules, connection between player and the game, challenges and overcoming them, plot and player's connection with it. Design refers to the general structure of the level in hand, while Graphics, AKA (at least for you all) aesthetics are just visual adds, that tend to make the level look better, but that's as far as it gets regarding its importance.
In the end, what truly matters' the gameplay, seconded by design, and THEN comes graphics. There's no turn around for this order.
The question is, WHAT design? Level design? Art design? You can say either or and then you can't put the word "design" into one bin.
English is a brutal language, yo.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:15 pm
by Fuyu
Excuse me if there's some misunderstand on the real meaning of design when it actually refers to levels on SMBX. I rarely see people employ it elsewhere.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:18 pm
by Raster
You're right, graphics DON'T have anything to do with gameplay or design. However, they DO have to do with aesthetics and atmosphere, two categories essential for judging a level.
I think this is a common misconception here. Level design includes graphics and aesthetics. In fact, I'd argue that the design relies heavily on the graphics because the graphics set the atmosphere of the level.
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:23 pm
by DarkMatt
Then in that case design goes into gameplay.
The structure of the level is a vital key in achieving a good sense of that, as you said. The "gameplay" field denotes the level "designer's" ability to take the rules established and create an entertaining challenge for the player. While the game itself has fun mechanics and fun examples for the fun mechanics, it is ultimately up to the designer to grasp the meaning of these building blocks. Therefore, gameplay relies solely on the designer. If he does a crap level, then the gameplay suffers as a result.
Yes this is creative liberties with words. English is a brutal language. (I got told this in college today that's why I keep on repeating it.)
Re: I hate these kind of people
Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:00 pm
by Fuyu
Can't agree with you two I'm afraid.
DarkMatt wrote:Then in that case design goes into gameplay.
Nope, just nope.
DarkMatt wrote:The structure of the level is a vital key in achieving a good sense of that, as you said. The "gameplay" field denotes the level "designer's" ability to take the rules established and create an entertaining challenge for the player. While the game itself has fun mechanics and fun examples for the fun mechanics, it is ultimately up to the designer to grasp the meaning of these building blocks. Therefore, gameplay relies solely on the designer. If he does a crap level, then the gameplay suffers as a result.
Like I said, Level Design is the way you DESIGN the level, not the way you feel playing the level. It's a completely different thing. Even if graphics complement the design, they're still different things as well. Won't deny that graphics lend huge opportunities on what you could probably mix and do regarding level design, it's true after all.
The point is, that graphics lie well down what really matters, complements are nothing by themselves.