Kaizo Level Contest (THAT'S ALL FOLKS!)

[as303298]

Also, double post alert cus im too lazy to edit my first post.
I read you contest rules PP and I must say they are poorly constructed.

1. There is no rule explicitly stating that a level must be completable or finished. The rule only dictates that someone tested it, and this rule doesn't even affect their score directly.
2. The rules say that a level must be difficult, but not unfair. I asked Enjl, Sanct and put in my own input and we all had different reasonings as to what is really "unfair." I highly suggest you really iron out what key elements are to be avoided in this contest unless you want to run across some issues.
3. How can every single judge also be a participant? Who is moderating the levels and distributing them all if every judge is also a participant?
4. You rules state that a level can't be too difficult otherwise the judges are not required to play / finish the level. I find this kind of contradictory since this is a challenge contest....feels like you are punishing a level for being efficient based on your poorly constructed guidelines.

[PixelPest]

Also, double post alert cus im too lazy to edit my first post.
I read you contest rules PP and I must say they are poorly constructed.

1. There is no rule explicitly stating that a level must be completable or finished. The rule only dictates that someone tested it, and this rule doesn't even affect their score directly.
2. The rules say that a level must be difficult, but not unfair. I asked Enjl, Sanct and put in my own input and we all had different reasonings as to what is really "unfair." I highly suggest you really iron out what key elements are to be avoided in this contest unless you want to run across some issues.
3. How can every single judge also be a participant? Who is moderating the levels and distributing them all if every judge is also a participant?
4. You rules state that a level can't be too difficult otherwise the judges are not required to play / finish the level. I find this kind of contradictory since this is a challenge contest....feels like you are punishing a level for being efficient based on your poorly constructed guidelines.

Okay. For the first two things you mentioned, I'll see what I can do. For number 3, MECHDRAGON777 is the back-up judge, so that should resolve those issues. I'll rework the issue you addressed for number 4. Thanks for your concern about making this a better contest

EDIT: Okay, so I went back and did some stuff. I added a rule saying that your level must be completable and finished. Also, what you said for your fourth point isn't true. I never said too difficult, I said too unfair. I also mentioned unfair as utilizing elements such as enemy spam and cheap deaths

[as303298]

No I mean you need to get into real depth as to what you consider "unfair."
Sanct, Lukas, Prox and Enjl were all proposed with the following question: what do you find unfair.
All four of them, including myself, had different answers. For a contest reliant on difficulty, I think you should be as descriptive as possible so you dont have too many "bad" entries.

[PixelPest]

No I mean you need to get into real depth as to what you consider "unfair."
Sanct, Lukas, Prox and Enjl were all proposed with the following question: what do you find unfair.
All four of them, including myself, had different answers. For a contest reliant on difficulty, I think you should be as descriptive as possible so you dont have too many "bad" entries.

Okay. Is there any chance you could say what you thought? That could really help me a lot in making this better

[as303298]

No I mean you need to get into real depth as to what you consider "unfair."
Sanct, Lukas, Prox and Enjl were all proposed with the following question: what do you find unfair.
All four of them, including myself, had different answers. For a contest reliant on difficulty, I think you should be as descriptive as possible so you dont have too many "bad" entries.

Okay. Is there any chance you could say what you thought? That could really help me a lot in making this better

I suggest asking Enjl. His input was hell of a lot better than the rest of ours.

[PixelPest]

No I mean you need to get into real depth as to what you consider "unfair."
Sanct, Lukas, Prox and Enjl were all proposed with the following question: what do you find unfair.
All four of them, including myself, had different answers. For a contest reliant on difficulty, I think you should be as descriptive as possible so you dont have too many "bad" entries.

Okay. Is there any chance you could say what you thought? That could really help me a lot in making this better

I suggest asking Enjl. His input was hell of a lot better than the rest of ours.

I did but he would only give me one thing. Since you're around would you be able to tell me what you thought?

[MECHDRAGON777]

I would like to inform everyone that I am recording all of these entries. I will be harsher than Wraith/as303298's scores for SVLCII (he gave at least 4 negative 1's) when it comes to the difficulty score. Your difficulty score will come from a predetermined formula suggest I end up getting your level. (I forgot I was a back-up til halfway through that sentence). Either way, I am harsh when it comes to giving points in difficulty. I will still record all of these that PixelPest sends me.

/me deletes xyr demo file.

[Mivixion]

We aren't exactly aiming for totally fair levels, but we want something that's enjoyable (to the judges).

[MECHDRAGON777]

We aren't exactly aiming for totally fair levels, but we want something that's enjoyable (to the judges).

I was a main judge to the official Kaizo Contest II on the Talkhaus, so I can take this. In that contest, we we're forced to use a rubric, and for difficulty, my formula depended off of my death count and the equation carried depending on my deathcount that was highest and lowest. (MY highest was around 1,890 or so).

[Mivixion]

We shouldn't be rating the levels' quality by difficulty. The difficulty and how enjoyable the level are are two totally different things.

[MECHDRAGON777]

We shouldn't be rating the levels' quality by difficulty. The difficulty and how enjoyable the level are are two totally different things.

WE have to grade the difficulty as a separate thing. We have to rate them from 0-20 in difficulty, and 1-10 overall where difficulty can not be a asspect of the review.

[Mivixion]

Yeah but it shouldn't affect the rating at all.

[MECHDRAGON777]

Yeah but it shouldn't affect the rating at all.

The Process:
After the contest opens, you will have one month to sign up and later submit your level; make sure it abides to the rules presented below. After the submission period ends, the judges will have two weeks to submit their reviews. Reviews will include a score from zero to 10 out of 10 as well as a difficulty rating out of 20 that will not directly influence the level's score.

[Mivixion]

Exactly. You were making it sound like you were only rating based off of difficulty.

[Alagirez]

So, this is a demon level contest eh?!?!?
i will join

[MECHDRAGON777]

Exactly. You were making it sound like you were only rating based off of difficulty.

I may be a back-up judge, but I want every level a judge can not beat. I will record all levels anyway. I am going to be harsh in the difficulty score though.

So, this is a demon level contest eh?!?!?
i will join

Uhh, I guess...

[Imaynotbehere4long]

We aren't exactly aiming for totally fair levels

^Proof Mivixion doesn't know what good level design is.

I never said too difficult, I said too unfair.

Wait, too unfair? Are you implying that the entries are supposed to be at least a little bit unfair? If so, that's proof you don't know what good level design is, either.

Also, if that's true, you might want to clarify that in the first post, because right now, you have "it should not be unfair," implying levels like Superpowered X would get a low score (when that's obviously not the case).

[PixelPest]

We aren't exactly aiming for totally fair levels

^Proof Mivixion doesn't know what good level design is.

I never said too difficult, I said too unfair.

Wait, too unfair? Are you implying that the entries are supposed to be at least a little bit unfair? If so, that's proof you don't know what good level design is, either.

Also, if that's true, you might want to clarify that in the first post, because right now, you have "it should not be unfair," implying levels like Superpowered X would get a low score (when that's obviously not the case).

I know perfectly well what good level design looks like. Please stop bashing me, Mivixion, and this thread. I've really had enough of this. If you want to continue this conversation please do so via PM. And yes, Superpowered X was a bad example since it does have a few parts in it that would be considered unfair. It's still a great level imo.

And what I'm trying to say overall is that levels shouldn't be unfair and I'm poor at providing examples

[as303298]

Ok sorry PP, was busy yesterday, but I'll try to give my input on this.

*A level's difficulty and obstacles must be presented to the player in a controlled environment. This means do not just give me a sign telling me how to do something, but rather gradually teach me through gameplay. This also means do no just shove the player directly into the hardest construct imaginable, make it gradually difficult first.
*Difficulty should not mean mandatory power-up babysitting or power-up exclusions. This means a Yoshi or shoe can be removed via warp pipes, but do not force a player to get hit and lose these objects forever.
*This is a difficulty contest, not a gimmick contest. A single gimmick, such as a propeller block gimmick, doesn't warrant difficulty. Make a genuine level with a variety of obstacles and/or gimmicks, not just one simple premise.
*Difficulty =/= impossible. A level must be passable within a reasonable, albeit excruciatingly salty, timeframe. Do not ask the player to spend thirty minutes in one level, since this is just a waste of time. Likewise, don't make it the world's hardest level and make it only thirty seconds long; this isn't a level at this point.
*Do not force a player to use a gimmick unknown to the community as a whole. Breaking the laws of physics isn't difficulty, it is only irritating and tedious to learn for new players.
*While player specific levels are cool, do try to make a level universally playable. Some players may not be well versed in other character's physics and quirks. As a result, it is relatively unfair for throw someone into a Link based level with gimmicks unknown to Mario-based levels.

[PixelPest]

Ok sorry PP, was busy yesterday, but I'll try to give my input on this.

*A level's difficulty and obstacles must be presented to the player in a controlled environment. This means do not just give me a sign telling me how to do something, but rather gradually teach me through gameplay. This also means do no just shove the player directly into the hardest construct imaginable, make it gradually difficult first.
*Difficulty should not mean mandatory power-up babysitting or power-up exclusions. This means a Yoshi or shoe can be removed via warp pipes, but do not force a player to get hit and lose these objects forever.
*This is a difficulty contest, not a gimmick contest. A single gimmick, such as a propeller block gimmick, doesn't warrant difficulty. Make a genuine level with a variety of obstacles and/or gimmicks, not just one simple premise.
*Difficulty =/= impossible. A level must be passable within a reasonable, albeit excruciatingly salty, timeframe. Do not ask the player to spend thirty minutes in one level, since this is just a waste of time. Likewise, don't make it the world's hardest level and make it only thirty seconds long; this isn't a level at this point.
*Do not force a player to use a gimmick unknown to the community as a whole. Breaking the laws of physics isn't difficulty, it is only irritating and tedious to learn for new players.
*While player specific levels are cool, do try to make a level universally playable. Some players may not be well versed in other character's physics and quirks. As a result, it is relatively unfair for throw someone into a Link based level with gimmicks unknown to Mario-based levels.

Thanks so much. This is very helpful. I'll make some revisions to the rules when I have a few minutes