The Invasion 3 (Demo of Worlds 1 to 4 released)

[Prismarine]

After Discord changed its way of handling files last year, the screenshots in this thread broke because of it at large

Here are some screenshots from Worlds 1 to 4:










Will aim to post more screenshots, including Worlds 5 to 9.

Hi bro, looks good but are these levels the same in the invasion 2 just with few changes or are completly new levels and overworld?

some of the levels look new but who knows

[ShadowStarX]

some of the levels look new but who knows

I mean, all levels are new to some degree, but some are loosely based on Redigit's levels in The Invasion 2, some are not related to those at all.
If somebody intends to play Redigit's levels, they will play his episode, not this one I believe. Our goal is to make something that expands upon Redigit's classic, not something that merely copies it with tiny alterations.

[Prismarine]

some of the levels look new but who knows

I mean, all levels are new to some degree, but some are loosely based on Redigit's levels in The Invasion 2, some are not related to those at all.
If somebody intends to play Redigit's levels, they will play his episode, not this one I believe. Our goal is to make something that expands upon Redigit's classic, not something that merely copies it with tiny alterations.

Say, what about the world map screenshots?

[ShadowStarX]

some of the levels look new but who knows

I mean, all levels are new to some degree, but some are loosely based on Redigit's levels in The Invasion 2, some are not related to those at all.
If somebody intends to play Redigit's levels, they will play his episode, not this one I believe. Our goal is to make something that expands upon Redigit's classic, not something that merely copies it with tiny alterations.

Say, what about the world map screenshots?

Worlds 1 to 4 map, subject to minor change.

Worlds 5 to 9 map may change to a notably higher degree than these worlds so that's why I'm not taking screenshots of them.

[Justin Bieber Fan]

Hi bro, looks good but are these levels the same in the invasion 2 just with few changes or are completly new levels and overworld?

Roughly half the levels are reiterations of Invasion 2 levels but I don't think that the changes are few, except for maybe some of the World 1 levels.
The other half of the levels are basically brand new.

There are some Invasion 2 levels which will not be reimagined in Invasion 3, but I'd say roughly 80% of them have already been remade.
An example for a brand new level would be that 3rd screenshot, an SMB3 athletic level called "Platforms of Guided Movement"

ohh thats good, i will be waiting for this

[ShadowStarX]

There's been some great progress on the episode lately, as Worlds 1 to 4 are finished and Worlds 5 to 9 are all over halfway done.

Considering that the first four Worlds are fairly easy to detach from the later parts of the game, we've decided to release a public demo for the episode with the following content:

• 38 levels with 16 secret exits
• A mixture of reiterations from The Invasion 2 and original stages
• 4 worlds
  • Mushroom Plains
  • Dinosaur Island
  • Koopa Kingdom
  • Subcon Complex
  • (side world) Frosty Frostlands
• 3 Switch Palaces
• A handful of Toad/Yoshi Houses
• A portion of Rosalina's Star Palace

Download the Public Demo right here

If there is a level missing that you were expecting to see again, it may still very well be in a later world, such as Painful Playland. There have been some reshufflings among and within the worlds.

Enjoy the beta, and feel free to give feedback in this thread.

[Emral]

It's like a less exciting TI2. 5/10

[ShadowStarX]

It's like a less exciting TI2. 5/10

What would you consider the primary source of that, if so?
Are the levels too easy, or do you think their design is just "too safe", or do some things just feel repetitive, or are there different issues with the gameplay?

[Emral]

It's like a less exciting TI2. 5/10

What would you consider the primary source of that, if so?
Are the levels too easy, or do you think their design is just "too safe", or do some things just feel repetitive, or are there different issues with the gameplay?

My feelings boil down to:
- The redesigned levels are generally less interestingly designed than the originals. The added length to the levels also makes the episode feel bloated.
- The new levels rarely fit in the vibe of The Invasion 2. Levels like Nice Boulder, The Blow and Bachelors of Magic are a trope that never existed in TI2 - levels designed exclusively around one very specific enemy type or mechanic. These feel particularly uninspired. Other levels like Subcon Lucid Dream Land are just very forgettable.
- The episode struggles to reward the player in compelling ways. I played as Toad. There was a pattern where whenever the game gave me a boot, it immediately asked me to put it away (often because of clear pipes). The restriction of powerups to just fire/ice flowers is felt much more here than in TI2 because of the level length and count. There are no fun hidden secrets in levels.

On the plus side:
- "A short level" has a very funny reimagining
- The Fungi Town from Cliche made me laugh

[ShadowStarX]

It's like a less exciting TI2. 5/10

What would you consider the primary source of that, if so?
Are the levels too easy, or do you think their design is just "too safe", or do some things just feel repetitive, or are there different issues with the gameplay?

My feelings boil down to:
- The redesigned levels are generally less interestingly designed than the originals. The added length to the levels also makes the episode feel bloated.
- The new levels rarely fit in the vibe of The Invasion 2. Levels like Nice Boulder, The Blow and Bachelors of Magic are a trope that never existed in TI2 - levels designed exclusively around one very specific enemy type or mechanic. These feel particularly uninspired. Other levels like Subcon Lucid Dream Land are just very forgettable.
- The episode struggles to reward the player in compelling ways. I played as Toad. There was a pattern where whenever the game gave me a boot, it immediately asked me to put it away (often because of clear pipes). The restriction of powerups to just fire/ice flowers is felt much more here than in TI2 because of the level length and count. There are no fun hidden secrets in levels.

On the plus side:
- "A short level" has a very funny reimagining
- The Fungi Town from Cliche made me laugh

For clear pipes and boots/yoshis, I suppose the steps I could take are "no mount" doors which give the boot back after the level's completion, like how Pwnhammer does it.
The thing about levels like Nice Boulder and The Blow is that their enemies have way more advanced behavior than whatever 1.3 had to offer, which means that throwing multiple things at the player at once could prove potentially overwhelming to the player, unless the evolution of setups with these enemies is spread across multiple levels in different combinations. Which admittedly, seems like a fun way to explore ideas, but I fear it can also leave to some levels just feeling "less whole".

When it comes to powerups, do you think that World 3 and beyond should use the Leaf more often (the Leaf is even introduced earlier than before, as Flying Raccoon Zone is 3-1 not 4-1), and there should be more ways to attain the Hammer Suit or the Tanooki? Alternatively the Rip Lair's Powerup Pack has some options that are fairly enticing such as The Blue Shell or the Bubble Flower.

The hidden secrets aspect can be fairly easily addressed I would say, as there is lots of potential for talking NPCs in bonus rooms, like how Fungi Town was like.

And when it comes Toad, Peach and Link, I do test individual levels as them, but I suppose the design of many obstacles (even if we ignore clear pipes) seems to primarily favour Yoshis, and thus Mario and Luigi instead. Carriable objects for instance are a prime example of something that Yoshis are better equipped against.

[Emral]

For clear pipes and boots/yoshis, I suppose the steps I could take are "no mount" doors which give the boot back after the level's completion, like how Pwnhammer does it.

An alright approach. Not placing a boot bonus next to a level with clear pipes in it would also be good. Or not placing a clear pipe in the star palace leading toward another boot. Some spatial awareness.

The thing about levels like Nice Boulder and The Blow is that their enemies have way more advanced behavior than whatever 1.3 had to offer, which means that throwing multiple things at the player at once could prove potentially overwhelming to the player, unless the evolution of setups with these enemies is spread across multiple levels in different combinations. Which admittedly, seems like a fun way to explore ideas, but I fear it can also leave to some levels just feeling "less whole".

I think using the word "setup" at all fundamentally misunderstands how TI2 is designed and strikes at the root of why I was disappointed by the changes and new levels. TI2 is at its best when it finds creative ways to use the engine's elements in a carefree and loose manner, and by using a standard setup-based design that gets distilled to something very lacking in individuality.
That doesn't mean that I'm advocating for a spammy alternative design, just I think that more thought could be given to emergent interactions and level structures.
In the remakes of TI2 levels, you often copy the iconic and best parts (obviously, because they are iconic and fun even after a decade), but there are no new iconic parts in those levels. Just extra padding in between. It's been 2 hours and I already forgot most of the new stuff.
As an example for a great TI2 level, the Switch Action Zone from the SMW world. It has this setup near the end where you use a P Switch and Springboards to bust through a layer of bricks before the switch runs out. The thought process for creating this setup was likely something like "but wait if I put this here, then this synergizes in a fun way", or "how can i show off this neat interaction?".
I think focusing on that rather than "how can I make a 2 minute level focused around smw spike and reuse the same 'big spike ball break through wall of bricks' obstacle 3 times", or "how can i extend pwnhammer by copypasting the same split path for some reason but switching the powerup type" will lead to more interesting and memorable levels.
You mention Twisters. Twisters are very easily used in upwards vertical sections. Twisters' main gimmick is "blow things up", but it doesn't always have to be "blow enemy upwards", because then you can just use a springboard for the same effect. They can be a puzzle element where you need to get the twister to a key to blow it through a semisolid, or they can be placed on a 1 tile thick ceiling above the player and the player can actually stick to the ceiling below the twister. Or they can be stacked vertically to create a long upwards gust blowing you to safety.
These are ideas that only ever need to be used once in a level but which are more varied, unique and also teach the player about ways to use the vanilla elements in ways that don't seem obvious at first. And if that isn't enough for a level, hey, you got half a vertical level now so what other enemies thrive in this environment? Not every screen has to have a twister.

When it comes to powerups, do you think that World 3 and beyond should use the Leaf more often (the Leaf is even introduced earlier than before, as Flying Raccoon Zone is 3-1 not 4-1), and there should be more ways to attain the Hammer Suit or the Tanooki? Alternatively the Rip Lair's Powerup Pack has some options that are fairly enticing such as The Blue Shell or the Bubble Flower.

From my perspective this is only an issue because the game is so much longer. The best fix is to make the game shorter. Second best is to give more access to stronger weapons earlier on. If not by obvious means, perhaps by means of bonus challenges. Adding custom powerups seems like a recipe for disaster.

The hidden secrets aspect can be fairly easily addressed I would say, as there is lots of potential for talking NPCs in bonus rooms, like how Fungi Town was like.

The talking NPC's in this aren't super good at being a reward because they're mostly just kinda unfunny. Just give invisible one-ups on some of the obvious ledges that players might try to reach, instant fix. some collectibles like star coins would also help. Retroville's behind-cave-section coin extravaganza seems like it wants to be a star coin spot.

I don't think I should monopolize this thread any further so if you want to discuss these things in more detail, shoot me a PM.

[ShadowStarX]

When it comes to powerups, do you think that World 3 and beyond should use the Leaf more often (the Leaf is even introduced earlier than before, as Flying Raccoon Zone is 3-1 not 4-1), and there should be more ways to attain the Hammer Suit or the Tanooki? Alternatively the Rip Lair's Powerup Pack has some options that are fairly enticing such as The Blue Shell or the Bubble Flower.

From my perspective this is only an issue because the game is so much longer. The best fix is to make the game shorter. Second best is to give more access to stronger weapons earlier on. If not by obvious means, perhaps by means of bonus challenges. Adding custom powerups seems like a recipe for disaster.

"Make the game shorter" is not an option. I admit to variety possibly being an issue but making the game shorter for the sake of it doesn't seem to be a good idea. Adding a bit more non-linearity (just split paths of semi-optional levels, similar to The Suck vs. The Blow) might help solve that issue. Hell I'd argue that your episode isn't a lot shorter than what this one is aiming to be, although admittedly the individual levels in it are slightly shorter and are definitely more daring, along with being quite varied gameplay wise. The concept of cutting more than just a handful of levels though doesn't seem to be an appealing idea.
Also I can see how having custom powerups could backfire, but I think it'd be fairly easy to figure out where each powerup would prove useful without being game-breaking. The bigger issue with adding custom powerups would just be that it'd go against the spirit of TI2. Also I just learned minutes ago that it breaks Mario Challenge so that's also out of the question.
Giving more mounts, hammers and tanookis out early while making them not taken away seems to be the way then.

The hidden secrets aspect can be fairly easily addressed I would say, as there is lots of potential for talking NPCs in bonus rooms, like how Fungi Town was like.

The talking NPC's in this aren't super good at being a reward because they're mostly just kinda unfunny. Just give invisible one-ups on some of the obvious ledges that players might try to reach, instant fix. some collectibles like star coins would also help. Retroville's behind-cave-section coin extravaganza seems like it wants to be a star coin spot.

You seemed to have liked Fungi Town, but admittedly the dialogue of NPCs in hidden rooms is lacking. I wasn't talking about NPCs being the reward, just using them occasionally.
Regarding Star Coins, I'm not sure what'd be a good way to use them. Don't they tend to stick out like a sore thumb if they are just shoehorned into levels post-design? Granted I feel most levels do offer enough flexibility to have at least one cool Star Coin spot, and most of them even two, but reaching three would often require putting one "freebie" in each level.

[Suckerman7 GM]

Since I got nothing better to do, might as well make a let's play of the demo so far:

And here's the first of god knows how many videos:

[Ness-Wednesday]

I don't have much to add feedback-wise as I feel a lot of my critiques fall in a similar line to MrNameless's and Emral's points from the server and forums respectively. Especially regarding the lack of Star Coins. Even if every level won't include Star Coins, there should be at least one level with them per world. I do want to mention two small oversights I noticed while playing the demo:

Misplaced background object in A Short Fuzz: show

Extra ground corner tile in Trial of Time: show

[Suckerman7 GM]

sooo, I was recording the final episode of my playthrough on this, and then encountered... this bundle of joy.

yeah seriously you should fix this for a patch or something, it's kinda sticking out.

plus my video will be long and I plan to post the entire playlist of the demo once that's done, so you can check them all out I guess.

Back to my eternal solitude I go.

[Luna]

Okay, so uh...
turns out the red switch room is a softlock, RIP

But yeah, that concludes my playthrough!

[Suckerman7 GM]

Well that reminds me, I'm also done with this.



Also the playlist for the other 3 videos: (Not that it matters but oh well)

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBYX ... J9aqom3h88

[PROX]

You've really made some progress with this! I look forward to playing it in the future.

[Prismarine]

Actually, its been a while since the last demo was released. Damn, like 5 months? I hope the project is still ongoing pogress.

[ShadowStarX]

Don't worry the project is alive, I've just had a very rough winter and spring.