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Bottom line: conservatism is the wrong way to go in a rapidly changing world

I usually don't care much about north american politics, but I decided to make an exception here.

Instead of directly having a say, people should just have the state do it for them. Younger people should not be allowed to vote because, absurdly enough, they THINK DIFFERENTLY FROM ME!!!1! It is absurd how the democrats rig the north american democracy by, can you believe it, LETTING THE PEOPLE DIRECTLY CHOOSE THEIR PRESIDENT, AND EVEN WORSE, ALLOWING MORE PEOPLE TO DO SO!!!!!?????!?1!?11

I summed up the part about young people and the electoral college.

Cedur wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 2:30 am

MegaDood wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 12:05 am

FireyPaperMario wrote: ↑

Tue May 28, 2019 4:03 pm

Freaking dictator Trump decided to piss off gamers by making game consoles and games* 25% more expensive in the US.

*Modern games and console to be specific

Did Trump actually do that to annoy gamers? If so, why? Like, why increase gaming prices of all things?

dude don't ask this naively ... it's part of China trade war obvsly

What do you mean? I don't live in America so I know nothing about any of this stuff... I was just asking out of surprise.

Rhosty wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 4:04 pm

Bottom line: conservatism is the wrong way to go in a rapidly changing world

It's way better than socialism which is causing mass starvation in venuezela or communism like that of china. Conservative Christians in America started the Republican party to fight the slavery of the Democratic party and the first Republican president Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves. I think conservatism has made America a much better place.

Added in 5 minutes 44 seconds:

MegaDood wrote: ↑

Thu May 30, 2019 1:56 am

Cedur wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 2:30 am

MegaDood wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 12:05 am

Did Trump actually do that to annoy gamers? If so, why? Like, why increase gaming prices of all things?

dude don't ask this naively ... it's part of China trade war obvsly

What do you mean? I don't live in America so I know nothing about any of this stuff... I was just asking out of surprise.

Do research about the trade war with China. China has unfair trade with America and Trump is the first president to say that's not right and is fighting back with tariffs. I like trumps foreign policy. Why should China treat us so unfairly and get away with it?

Plus using tariffs got Canada and Mexico to agree to a much better nafta deal so it can and does work. China is just stubborn and has to have the better deals for trade so they won't back down.

Just saying, China and Venezuela have nothing to do with socialism nor communism.

ShadowStarX wrote: ↑

Thu May 30, 2019 4:57 am

Just saying, China and Venezuela have nothing to do with socialism nor communism.

So socialism has nothing to do with Venezuela becoming an extremely poor and starved country? So would you say caused this?

Teemster2 wrote: ↑

Thu May 30, 2019 7:04 pm

ShadowStarX wrote: ↑

Thu May 30, 2019 4:57 am

Just saying, China and Venezuela have nothing to do with socialism nor communism.

So socialism has nothing to do with Venezuela becoming an extremely poor and starved country? So would you say caused this?

Sources of poverty and further proof that the country is not socialist:
1) The Bald Eagle constantly rips it apart both to have cheap oil and also to serve as an anti-socialist propaganda (even though the country is not socialist)
2) The country is a dictatorship
3) 70% of people are employed in the private sector and NOT in workers' cooperatives nor as freelancers, but megacorporations

If you truly wanted to see a reason why socialism is ultimately better: if you compare Cuba to the rest of Latin America ever since Castro's rule came to an end. Cuba is entirely self-sustaining, poverty is much lower than in the rest of Latin America and its economy is on par with Argentina, Chile and Uruguay, which have an advantage due to having lots of ports and/or minerals.

And well, it'd not be fair to compare Cuba to the Western world as they are geographically unfortunate, have constantly been sabotaged by the American Empire and doesn't exploit other countries. (meanwhile the USA constantly exploits Africa, Middle East, Southeast Asia and Latin America, though China is also a big sinner of neocolonialism)

Note: I'd never live in Cuba as they are still very poor compared to the West, however, the reason for that is the constant blockades done by the USA. If socialism succeeded somewhere, the USA would immediately try to sabotage them to point fingers. Like, if a country was constantly embargoed by the largest economy in the world, it'd be a miracle if they didn't collapse.

Teemster2 wrote: ↑

Thu May 30, 2019 4:03 am

Rhosty wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 4:04 pm

Bottom line: conservatism is the wrong way to go in a rapidly changing world

It's way better than socialism which is causing mass starvation in venuezela or communism like that of china. Conservative Christians in America started the Republican party to fight the slavery of the Democratic party and the first Republican president Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves. I think conservatism has made America a much better place.

dude, the world isn't that black and white. saying "maybe it's for the better to progress and not get stuck on old traditions" doesn't make you a socialist, which is what you seem to think.

Allowing 16 year olds to vote is another way to rig the elections because a lot of younger people seem to be left leaning liberals and yet they seem so clueless on actually political issues.

a way to rig the elections? with the same logic allowing the rich to vote is a way to rig the elections because they'll most likely vote for right-wing parties. the point of an election is to hear the voice of the people, and allowing more people to vote isnt "rigging" but making the vote more accurate and fair.

The democrats think giving voting rights to 16 year olds will play in their favor and it is believed by many that most teachers are liberal and teach liberal views so it's easy to understand why the democrats want voting rights for teenagers.

the democrats this and the democrats that, just shut up. here in finland even a lot of conservatives and right wing politicians are for this. this isnt some big plan of the left to brainwash america and get them in power, its literally just their opinion, and they see that its more fair this way. i hate people like this who as soon as they hear something they disagree with go "dEMOCRAT CONSPIRACY THE LEFT IS TRYING TO DESTROY AMERICA"

The democrats also want illegals and criminals to have voting rights. So where do we draw the line on who can and can't vote?

so youre comparing 16 year olds to illegal immigrants and criminals? ok



(for the record i'm a left-leaning centrist: i am for free market but also for a strong welfare system, free healthcare etc.)

SE40 wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:21 pm

Teemster2 wrote: ↑

Thu May 30, 2019 4:03 am

Rhosty wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2019 4:04 pm

Bottom line: conservatism is the wrong way to go in a rapidly changing world

It's way better than socialism which is causing mass starvation in venuezela or communism like that of china. Conservative Christians in America started the Republican party to fight the slavery of the Democratic party and the first Republican president Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves. I think conservatism has made America a much better place.

dude, the world isn't that black and white. saying "maybe it's for the better to progress and not get stuck on old traditions" doesn't make you a socialist, which is what you seem to think.

Allowing 16 year olds to vote is another way to rig the elections because a lot of younger people seem to be left leaning liberals and yet they seem so clueless on actually political issues.

a way to rig the elections? with the same logic allowing the rich to vote is a way to rig the elections because they'll most likely vote for right-wing parties. the point of an election is to hear the voice of the people, and allowing more people to vote isnt "rigging" but making the vote more accurate and fair.

The democrats think giving voting rights to 16 year olds will play in their favor and it is believed by many that most teachers are liberal and teach liberal views so it's easy to understand why the democrats want voting rights for teenagers.

the democrats this and the democrats that, just shut up. here in finland even a lot of conservatives and right wing politicians are for this. this isnt some big plan of the left to brainwash america and get them in power, its literally just their opinion, and they see that its more fair this way. i hate people like this who as soon as they hear something they disagree with go "dEMOCRAT CONSPIRACY THE LEFT IS TRYING TO DESTROY AMERICA"

The democrats also want illegals and criminals to have voting rights. So where do we draw the line on who can and can't vote?

so youre comparing 16 year olds to illegal immigrants and criminals? ok



(for the record i'm a left-leaning centrist: i am for free market but also for a strong welfare system, free healthcare etc.)

I said the democrats were pushing for socialism. Was I lying? I can give you plenty of examples and I also said socialism is bad. Allowing the government full control of every single thing in this country means no freedoms for us citizens. I never said "progress" is bad but the way the left wants to progress is bad. I normally don't respond to people who make up words I never said. I asked where do we draw the line on who can and can't vote. How is that comparing 16 year olds to illegals? Do you want me to tell you the dictionary meaning of compare?

"Estimate, note or compare the similarity or disimilarity between". So when I said the democrats want to give voting rights to 16 year olds, illegals and criminals I was asking where do we draw the line. I never once tried to compare or say 16 year olds were the same as illegals but nice try. I don't think 16 year olds are mature enough to vote and there is a lot of people in America who feel the same way. The democrats just want more voters and it's a fact younger people lean to the left.

Now back to socialism...it has been tried in 40 countries and some for decades and it failed in every country. Letting the government have complete control over every single company In America is bad and scary. In America one Democratic contender denounced socialism and was booed by other democrats. There is several democrats like Bernie pushing for a left socialist America. There goes are freedoms if they win.

Next they will decide what company's can build more factories, headquarters etc. Alexandria Cortez who is a democrat already stopped apple from creating 25 thousand jobs in New York State just recently and the new green deal they want that would cost trillions of our tax payer dollars would hurt many jobs including automotive jobs.

Think about it. That record unemployment for all Trump has worked hard to make possible (companies announced tens of thousands of jobs to be created after Trump won) and our economy will tank if socialism takes over. It just won't work. If Trump loses we all lose.

You people really need to do your research or try harder to argue my points. Trump is not a perfect person but he has done some great things for America. The media only shows you what it wants you to see so you think Trump is a bad guy when he is not.

Added in 14 minutes 25 seconds:

ShadowStarX wrote: ↑

Fri May 31, 2019 3:00 am

Teemster2 wrote: ↑

Thu May 30, 2019 7:04 pm

ShadowStarX wrote: ↑

Thu May 30, 2019 4:57 am

Just saying, China and Venezuela have nothing to do with socialism nor communism.

So socialism has nothing to do with Venezuela becoming an extremely poor and starved country? So would you say caused this?

Sources of poverty and further proof that the country is not socialist:
1) The Bald Eagle constantly rips it apart both to have cheap oil and also to serve as an anti-socialist propaganda (even though the country is not socialist)
2) The country is a dictatorship
3) 70% of people are employed in the private sector and NOT in workers' cooperatives nor as freelancers, but megacorporations

If you truly wanted to see a reason why socialism is ultimately better: if you compare Cuba to the rest of Latin America ever since Castro's rule came to an end. Cuba is entirely self-sustaining, poverty is much lower than in the rest of Latin America and its economy is on par with Argentina, Chile and Uruguay, which have an advantage due to having lots of ports and/or minerals.

And well, it'd not be fair to compare Cuba to the Western world as they are geographically unfortunate, have constantly been sabotaged by the American Empire and doesn't exploit other countries. (meanwhile the USA constantly exploits Africa, Middle East, Southeast Asia and Latin America, though China is also a big sinner of neocolonialism)

Note: I'd never live in Cuba as they are still very poor compared to the West, however, the reason for that is the constant blockades done by the USA. If socialism succeeded somewhere, the USA would immediately try to sabotage them to point fingers. Like, if a country was constantly embargoed by the largest economy in the world, it'd be a miracle if they didn't collapse.

Everyone says socialism destroyed venuezela. Your the first person I have seen say that's not true.

The former president Hugo Chavez took power after his party called "the United socialist party of venuzela" took over. Chavez has destroyed the country. The party is against capitalism. Capitalism is what makes companies private ownership. So the government now controlls every company in that country. They can literally stop the production of food and starve the people. Oh wait they already are starving and dying every day.

Socialism has been tried and failed in 40 countries. We don't need it in America. If I start a bussiness I want to run it and not the government. The democrats are so far to the left its crazy.

Thankfully I talk to democrats all the time and some of them are going to vote for Trump in 2020 who did not in 2016. I work with a lot of African Americans and it's nice to see how many of them are waking up. #walkaway.

Bernie Sanders is not a socialist, he's a social democrat.
He does not want to end capitalism (sadly) but he wants to have a better welfare system and taxation similar to the '60s. (Which were the most prosperous years for the USA economically)

I am personally not a fan of socialism, mainly because of the fact that it proposes a maximum state which can easily devolve into a system that ends up favoring an even lower minority than before. The large majority of countries that attempted it ended up failing precisely because of this issue. The best way around this would be to skip straight to anarcho communism, but that would be very difficult to do, for obvious reasons.

Of course, capitalism has several problems as well, mainly issues like a constantly increasing social inequality, among others.

Personally, I believe the best way to go would be a middle term, such as a social democratic system.

Thehelmetguy1 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:56 am

I am personally not a fan of socialism, mainly because of the fact that it proposes a maximum state which can easily devolve into a system that ends up favoring an even lower minority than before. The large majority of countries that attempted it ended up failing precisely because of this issue. The best way around this would be to skip straight to anarcho communism, but that would be very difficult to do, for obvious reasons.

Of course, capitalism has several problems as well, mainly issues like a constantly increasing social inequality, among others.

Personally, I believe the best way to go would be a middle term, such as a social democratic system.

Social democracy is not the middle term. It's just capitalism with social benefits that still hugely relies on neocolonialism.

Also socialism isn't inherently authoritarian.
A truly socialist economy would be based on workers' cooperatives, freelancers or democratic corporations rather than the current transnational companies. State ownership actually fits capitalism more than socialism. Just look at China... the ruling elite prospers meanwhile the rest of the country owns nothing. I wouldn't call that socialism.

Also China is imperialistic, which is another proof of not being socialistic. (just look at what they're doing in Africa)

I am aware, but I believe a socialist government(Note that I refer mainly to marxist socialism, should have also clarified that) is more prone to devolving into a more authoritarian one, that would only favor a specific group. Also yeah, I didn't choose my words properly when refering to a middle term. I do, however, mantain my thoughts other than this.

The main issue with communism/socialism is humans.

Electriking wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:36 pm

The main issue with communism/socialism is humans.

This perfectly sums up my thoughts on why it doesn't work most of the times.

I think this is the perfect time to post this. (even though Venezuela isn't actually socialist but the rest were/are)

This thread is devolving into a general talk about politics.

On an actual note, Germany is wondering if the "grand" coalition will last or if there will be reelections

Well, what I said doesn't point that the US is innocent either. I think it is safe to say that no one likes how they intervene around the world according to their own interests.

As for Venezuela, I'd consider it a case of pseudo socialism. Essentially claims to be a socialist government that helps the poor, but in practice, does the exact opposite, benefitting only a small part of the population at the expense of the rest.

Cedur wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:37 am

This thread is devolving into a general talk about politics.

On an actual note, Germany is wondering if the "grand" coalition will last or if there will be reelections

It's to be expected given the topic.

Teemster2 wrote:It's way better than socialism which is causing mass starvation in venuezela or communism like that of china. Conservative Christians in America started the Republican party to fight the slavery of the Democratic party and the first Republican president Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves. I think conservatism has made America a much better place.

Let me tell you about Abraham Lincoln. America was one of the last nations to end chattle slavery. Not only that it was dying everywhere it was practiced. Honest Abe couldn't leave well enough alone and fought the deadliest war in American history to date killing 600,000 people, leaving a permanent scar in the nation's state boundaries, and used slash and burn tactics that created a ripe opportunity for resentment that would not begin to be resolved until the 1960s with the civil rights movement. Lincoln only incidentally freed the slaves but overall he left a loophole in the 13th amendment for legal penal slavery, and did every dirty trick in the book to do so. Lincoln created two states, arrested journalists, burned down crops, suspended habeas corpus and killed hundreds of thousands of people to keep power through the war effort. This would spawn the Jim Crow laws which were so extreme even the Nazis had to tone it down a bit with their own racial purity laws. To this day America has not recovered from the disaster of the first Republican president.

We had boring normal elections which I don't know happened (I think couples can divorce earlier or something like that) Nothing out of the ordinary where I live. Brexit (again another country) has thankfully quietened down on the radio.