StrikeForcer wrote:That statement on Kaizo Hacking 101 was made in the context of introducing new people to Kaizo and building and testing said Kaizo levels with regards to the fairness of the problem-solving areas and other things that make up an average Kaizo level one would build, not necessarily playing a finished product on console or emulator
Exactly, because even among those who play kaizo, playing kaizo savestateless is a niche minority. The only people who play kaizo savestateless are people trying to show off to get views/subscribers.
To be fair, he does mention that some people "
tried to make Kaizo hacks that were possible savestate-less in order to speedrun," but were any of those attempts successful or well received? If not, that just hurts your argument even more.
StrikeForcer wrote:just because there is contradictory opinions expressed in those links need not be undermining the argument I put forth as long as the argument I put forth is valid
Oh man, that's rich! "Just because nobody agrees with me doesn't mean I'm not right about what they think!!" Let me break this down for you:
Your argument:
Kaizo can be done in SMBX because certain types of well-received Kaizo aren't meant to be played with savestates.
The article:
People give Kaizo a bad rap because they don't realize that you're supposed to use savestates throughout the whole thing.
The Kaizo Hacking 101 post:
We take for granted that you're fully intended to use savestates when playing even the easiest Kaizo to the point where it's only worth mentioning it in passing.
Your argument is about a niche group. Your argument can be watertight in every other aspect, but if that niche group doesn't agree with you, your entire argument is invalid.
You won't be able to convince me otherwise until you find a kaizo hack that explicitly says that it is meant to be played without savestates, etc., and it still has positive reception. If you're right, that shouldn't be too hard. Like I said, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you have to work with me, here!
StrikeForcer wrote:now how can you tell me that it "blatanly encourages cheap design decisions" eh?
Here's a couple that stood out the most for me:
G. Quick thinking
One of the things that TAKE used a lot in the original three Kaizo Mario World hacks was a quick reaction section. This means that the player has to react often inhumanly fast to avoid getting trapped or killed. These are best placed at the beginning of a hack to immediately pose a threat to the player. After the first time dying, however, the player can pretty much avoid it any time. These traps are mostly for initial shock and annoyance, and they don't really increase the overall difficulty of a hack.
In this example, you have to run really fast to the right or you get stuck from the mole. After the first death, however, you pretty much know to run right at the start every time.
These kind of traps can create a lot of
funny moments
(Don't click link if you dislike language).
He says that the only way to avoid them is to react "inhumanly fast" and that the traps are for "initial shock and annoyance,"
yet he still encourages it! The worst part is that he says "they don't really increase the overall difficulty of a hack" because "After the first time dying, however, the player can pretty much avoid it any time." With that said, why do something that's only there to annoy the player if it has no other impact on the level as a whole (meaning it can be removed without affecting the rest level) and literally just serves to be annoying? That's a clear case of bad level design.
The same also goes for traps at the end of stages. For example, the video he linked to, while it may be funny to watch, is clearly not fun to play because it shows something the player has no chance to react to on his/her first try. On top of that, since it's at the end of the stage, it forces the player to go back and redo the parts he/she got past legit just because of a cheap trap. That's not fun for anyone (even if you are using savestates, it just serves to be annoying, like the beginner's traps).
He did say "These traps are
mostly for initial shock and annoyance," but I'd like to see an example where that's not the case.
I have a similar complaint for this:
Flying fish can be fun once in a while, but like munchers and invisible coins, they can get annoying very quickly. Make sure you have actual fun level design in-between these annoying little things.
Make sure you have actual fun level design in-between these annoying little things. ACTUAL FUN. He admits that it's bad design, yet these are all things he encouraged in that post. If that doesn't tell you that he encourages bad level design, I'm not sure what will.
StrikeForcer wrote:Keep in mind that using savestates for a particular section doesn't mean that the hack can't be beaten without resorting to the use of em
Well, yeah, of course it
can be beaten savestateless, just like how pit hacks can also technically be beaten without Tool Assistance; that doesn't mean it was ever intended.
StrikeForcer wrote:I would agree with you on it being unfair only when one has to use savestates multiple times when one is at the skill level to be reasonably be competent enough to play Kaizo hacks (think of notable people like Panga, worldpeace125, or any given TASer at the most extreme)
Um...you know that TAS stands for "Tool Assisted Speedrun," meaning while they may not be using savestates, they're still using emulator-exclusive benefits like input-recording, rewinding, frame advance, etc., then only recording the finished product. You basically just said "it's only unfair if a machine can't beat it without savestates."
Also, about Panga having skill, this is from the description in his U-Break video: "it took me 39 hours to beat this level." A successful run of U-Break takes less than one minute. That tells me kaizo isn't about skill, but about patience and trial-and-error, which any good level designer can tell you is tedious and not fun. If Kaizo is truly reliant on skill, it shouldn't take the author of a level the hourly equivalent of almost two days to beat
his own one minute level. It shouldn't even take
one hour, let alone 39, to beat a one minute level. Oh, and before you talk about how this is a kaizo level meant to be beaten without savestates because Mario Maker doesn't support savestates, check the comments. If you look in the comments, you'll find few, if any, positive reception; it's all talking about how the level is bad and nobody will want to play it.
By the way, I looked up worldpeace125, and he doesn't explicitly say that he isn't using tool assistance in his videos, so you're probably mistaking cheating for skill again. Even if he did somehow manage to beat those levels without tool assistance, I'm willing to bet he spent a similar amount of time on them as Panga did on U-Break.