Project and Episode structure

[aero]

What does everyone think of changing how projects are handled? The requirements for new threads are highly focused on screenshots, but not really on other factors that are necessary for a project to be completed. One thing to get right is reducing bus factor. The Levels forum runs fine because individual levels are small scale and can build up a thread, and if someone stops making levels then nobody misses out on the next level because it doesn't exist. The projects forum doesn't have any team requirements so if it's a one person team then everything they worked on is lost. If there is a small team, bus factor is still an issue because content is withheld while the thread is kept up to date with screenshots/videos showcasing progress.

An idea I had to reduce bus factor would be to change the approach to how projects are handled. A member shouldn't go in a cave, make as many levels as they can, leave the cave, and then present what they made all at once. For that matter, neither should a small group of members enter a cave and come back with something. The metaphorical cave should be cut out, and instead we could incorporate what works for the Levels forum and extend it to projects. I think it would be interesting to try having members use their level threads to host the content as it's made and the project thread to be a sort of head that tracks the level threads contributing to the project and have demos released in the project thread. This would mean if user A, user B, and user C were level designers for a project, they would each have their own thread in the Levels forum. Every level that is a contribution to the project could be tagged as such to distinguish it from their other levels (or not it would ultimately be up to the users) and progress would be tracked, content would not be lost, more feedback is available and it wouldn't make projects into its own silo from levels and make the Projects forum an extension of the Levels forum. This would be similar to how the Level of Month threads are handled but more collaborative than contest like.

Ultimately I'd like to see the forums work like a simple pyramid rather than silos:

Finally, to bridge the gap between projects and completed episodes there could be a strong emphasis put on sharing playthroughs, while the feedback and criticism should be concentrated in the Projects/Levels threads. By the time a project is completed, there should have been plenty of feedback given and when it is finished the focus should be on reception. In essence it should be treated "as-is" and the forum would serve as a collection of episodes that people can play, and share their own videos/streams of playthroughs or their own thoughts of the completed project.

This would all be simple to change too. It would take a tweak of the Projects forum rules to require the OP have a team of people and keep track of progression, and for good measure the Projects forum could be made into a subforum of Levels to drive the connection home. Also just to note for projects that want to hype up a grand reveal and keep stuff private, that would still be allowed but the structure of the forum would have those be released in Episodes and the development would have to be in a Discord server, through PM, or any other means because that has the cave that needs to be gotten rid of.

Please give feedback/your own ideas. I'd like adjustments to be made and this is my pitch.

[cato]

Personally, people would start making levels and releasing them in the level forums.
Once they linked those levels together and have an idea on an episode, they would start a project thread, while still making individual levels. They need to transfer the project related levels to the project thread from the level thread while keeping individual level thread. Demos should be only allowed in the project subform, not the episode subform.
Once they finally finished the episode, they have to merge the entire project thread to the episode thread. The episode thread acts the same as the project with the screenshots, updated downloads, description etc.
In the end, creator's level thread should then only contain individual levels that bear no relations to the episode, while the entire project thread will be archived and merged to the episode thread.

[Emral]

The more intertwined levels become, the more difficult this idea becomes to realize. In the episode I'm currently working on, a few dozen libraries are loaded for each level, there's a shared resources folder, a shared music folder, a shared sounds folder, and levels are frequently updated whenever a cross-level improvement is done.

I think project threads themselves/sharing information itself are/is the problem. They put pressure on the creators to deliver a consistent stream of updates on a fan project they work on in their often limited free time. People who don't mind their content to be played before the episode is done are already posting in the Levels forum, and people who wanna avoid that stress (such as myself) (will) post in the Episodes forum directly.
My take would be to discourage posting progress on wip things that take several years entirely. Easiest way to do that would be to remove the forum.

[Cedur]

I second the approach of tying the Projects forum with the Levels forum (i.e. making Projects a subforum of Levels). Or there should finally be a minimum amount of 10 completed levels. Otherwise I'm not sure if increasing the barriers will prove any good.

Completely archiving Projects is no way since it will just lead to many more members posting an unfinished project in Episodes, not knowing where else to post it. Also, "pressure" directly expressed from other members is at most when a project thread has been idle for several months.

Also we simply don't have a wide enough userbase to make sure that every running project gets tons of feedback. (see: DrMekar's Mario Heroes)

[cato]

I second the approach of tying the Projects forum with the Levels forum (i.e. making Projects a subforum of Levels). Or there should finally be a minimum amount of 10 completed levels. Otherwise, I'm not sure if increasing the barriers will prove any good.

Then what about the SLAM subform?
You know, I would prefer putting "SLAM" ( levels submitted as official/public projects ) as a subform in the "level" forms. While putting "projects" ( unfinished episodes/demos ) as a subform in the "episode" forums.

Completed levels that are related to an episode should be put in/transfer to the project forum, not keeping those levels in the level forum.
Besides, locked thread aged more than a month should be archived/deleted.

[Cedur]

Then what about the SLAM subform?

SLAM is a community project; I'd say it would become another subforum of levels as well if this move happens?

While putting "projects" ( unfinished episodes/demos ) as a subform in the "episode" forums.

Will probably cause too much confusion among new members.

Besides, locked thread aged more than a month should be archived/deleted.

I agree, some old locked threads could be moved to the first iteration of Projects. Deletion is avoided though to not destroy an already existing discussion.

[Valentine]

how does this not strike anyone else as a complete mess navigation-wise.
please don't fuck with the structure.

I support more requirements in order to start a project thread, sure, maybe not requiring people to have a full team, but having enough content to be able to show that you're dedicated to the idea.

[Cedur]

Yeah the "you need a team" part is also too idealistic imo and deters most people.

[ShadowStarX]

I think the current structure is fine as it is.
Reducing traffic for two forums by making them subforums would generally decrease SMBX's activity even more, which is not what we need. We already have a rather shallow amount of traffic on the forums and discord, in spite of Beta 4 having released
And even if there is a way to distinguish levels for a project or individual levels, I think it'd just be a mess to deal with. Reducing traffic also makes people less likely to receive feedback, which designers are in dire need of.

I agree with the fact that the Projects forum is not in a good condition. Strictening the rules might work but I think general rule enforcement is the primary thing we need. To sum it up though, don't fix what's not broken. (referring to the structure of the forums)

I'd accept the Projects forum being moved under Episodes though, but I'd prefer not to.

[aero]

How would a structure change have an effect on activity? That's not what this is for. Having projects be completed and released is the goal.

Removing the forum entirely would be pretty drastic. If that's the consensus then that could happen. Unless there's a consensus nothing will be changed. I really think team requirements would help to eliminate projects dying because one person can't work on it any more. I just really don't like the idea of having work be done out of sight for the chance to be brought back and shared here. And I don't see how hard it would be to navigate. The structure borrows a bit from the Level of Month submissions that Eclipsed is doing, and tweaks it for collaboration. Those threads seem navigable to me, but if it's not navigable enough then still no changes will be made until there's consensus.

[Emral]

Also, "pressure" directly expressed from other members is at most when a project thread has been idle for several months.

The majority of pressure is internal. Sincerely, someone who's actually been working on episodes for a solid decade and has cancelled a good dozen.

As for restrictions, I don't think those are a solution... If we wanna throw in another incentive of sorts it should be to don't spend too much time on the thread and instead put it in the episode, detailing some things that will help the creator in keeping focus and thus making the process more fun overall. Like for example making a tutorial/example for structuring level and world ideas before the concepts have been realized, making it easier for people to think further ahead than 3 levels at a time. Something like what the "Tips and Tricks" topic I made a couple years ago is, but more easy and fun to read, essentially. Maybe I'll make a video. It won't really "solve" much of what this thread's first post mentions because ultimately everyone is here to have fun, and making threads and logos and marketing is sometimes more fun than making a cutscene or a level or a boss, so it'd be silly to outright discourage that as an outlet. It might improve the overall attitude people have towards their own endevours though.

For completeness' sake I will mention my idea from the other thread:
Classifying any unfinished work as a "project", be it music, screenshots, sprites, levels, episodes or scripts. Anything that has the primary purpose of gaining feedback. Once completed, the thread could remain open for gaining feedback for revisions, while a response post links it to the thread for the "release" version. I haven't quite worked out the nitty gritty of how to best handle the two-threads-per-thing thing, but in principle it's inspired by the CarlSagan42 discord which gathers feedback for levels across multiple revisions before archiving the final one, but without the finality. One way to handle it could be to lock release version threads for responses and link back to the development thread instead. Though if we wanted to do that I'd couple that with a thumbsup-system in the release forum where people can recommend levels through upvotes. The "one thread per user" thing would be an optional thing in the projects forum in this instance where a creator is free to link to the release threads of creations they made. One downside I'm seeing with my train of thought is someone having to make two threads at once when releasing something without prior project thread. I'm sure there are elegant solutions or alternatives that follow the general idea, though.

[aero]

I'm not sure how the two-threads-per-thing thing could be maintained. On Discord - at least the SMBX Discord - people use the #smbx-showcase channel to mostly share what they're doing that's WIP, and feedback is present. Usually it's showing off use of lua, and custom graphics. It has to be kept in mind that forums aren't the best venue for feedback on every type of content, and the forums have kept the same structure for content since the beginning and long before Discord was around. I think the forums would be best organized with levels being the basic unit of a project, and the composition of that level (screenshots, music, scripts, graphics, etc) gets feedback in a more transient way rather than as tracked progress coupled with a thread. As I said in the OP there's a high focus on screenshots compared to other requirements. Restructuring things to take that focus away and put it on more important factors for project completion that incorporate what works in the Levels forum and structurally treats levels as the unit of a project seems to me as ideal for the forums. Aspects of levels seem to be better suited for chat. Nobody wants judgment of screenshots on the forums, but it's preferred in showcase channels. That also seems preferable to other level assets.

[Cedur]

So, besides obligation of uploading a bunch of completed levels, what do you think are these more important factors?

Also misuse of the project forum is going to continue no matter what.
If a thread is completely faulty, it should be deleted even if a few people already started talking about something. (see: the recent thread "Super Mario Creations Galore", god that's so stupid)

[ShadowStarX]

Well, I think a solution for the Projects forum would be to make a demo of at least 20% of the levels planned for the episode compulsory to upload.
(it's very easy to bypass the 20%+ done criteria by just finishing one section of some levels and then screenshotting those, creating the illusion that over 20% of the episode is finished meanwhile it might just be 3-5%)

I still oppose putting any of the forums into each other though.

[Emral]

I think the public release of a demo during development is innately counterintuitive to working on large scale projects, since it distracts from working on the bigger picture and shifts focus on working demo-to-demo. As a result more innate pressure can build up and you work yourself down to where it isnt fun anymore. Enforcing this sounds horrible.

[Cedur]

I'd say releasing a small bunch of completed levels (say, 5) doesn't already need to be called a demo, since it may just be a level pack as well.

[aero]

So, besides obligation of uploading a bunch of completed levels, what do you think are these more important factors?

Setting deadlines, a reasonable scope, and most importantly establishing teams that can get the project to a finish. There's already a requirement to have reasonable project scope, but it's treated more like a suggestion. It's also more involved to verify that the requirements in place are being followed, making them weakly enforced.

Well, I think a solution for the Projects forum would be to make a demo of at least 20% of the levels planned for the episode compulsory to upload.
(it's very easy to bypass the 20%+ done criteria by just finishing one section of some levels and then screenshotting those, creating the illusion that over 20% of the episode is finished meanwhile it might just be 3-5%)

I still oppose putting any of the forums into each other though.

I'd say releasing a small bunch of completed levels (say, 5) doesn't already need to be called a demo, since it may just be a level pack as well.

And these implicate scope. Scope is just asserted to be "don't make a million levels lol" but that's not a clear requirement. Ultimately the requirement should be tied to ideas, and the creativity of the level designer(s). Both of those aren't really quantitative so to keep it clear, scope should be within a heuristic rather than set between an upper and lower limit. It should have to do with how many people are on a team, the type of project, schedules, pace, and other factors like that.

Again I think taking focus away from screenshots and putting it towards the factors that are important to working on a project is the way to go. I think putting Projects on top of Levels helps with questions around pace and creativity, and putting organization in project threads as the head naturally allows this. It's not perfect though.

[Emral]

This discussion is starting to sound like it's developing towards changes that would get the people affected by the changes to stop caring and leave... While I agree that the screenshots thing isn't really solving anything, I don't think other restrictions help either.
- I think people should spend as much time on their project thread as they feel is necessary
- I think most people posting project threads are not ready to get into the nitty-gritty of project management, and failed projects on the road are a part of the natural progression. People don't know their limits without having tested them. I cancelled a good dozen episodes myself once I reached my own.
- I think it's in our best interest to play into these aspects and help build the community around bringing best practices towards newcomers in an engaging way

So here's something different I've thought up:

It's natural that, while (after having made a dozen+) I think it's a massive waste of time, someone eager about their first or second or third grand game idea would want to spend a lot of time managing public reception and presenting the concept to the public, rather than the product. Writing "keep your project as the #1 focus" is one thing but who's realistically gonna take advice from words on the internet? Changing the system to accomodate for the people sounds much easier than the other way around. Perhaps an approach more appealing to newcomers is to reduce the emphasis on finishing a project and instead view them as "concepts". Coupled with this idea would come encouraging people to post what they have and how they feel at any given moment. The journey is the goal, and resources are needed to emphasize that. Both people who are kind and supportive and have experience in the matter, as well as a system that fluently leads from "active development" to "i'm done with this, regardless of its current state. Here is what I managed to do: <zip of levels, if they choose to upload it, complete with maybe what they wanted to do going onwards>"

This hopes to directly solve a few things:
- If the community aspect in this... community is provided in this system, people may feel more encouraged to interact and exchange ideas and be more open about their project's development
- With the expectation of completion gone, a lot of stress is lifted off a project thread, making the idea more appealing to everyone
- We would get an influx of project ideas that maybe aren't made to be completed by the original designer. Someone could hand off the idea to someone else who shows interest, or start to collaborate with them
- More projects would be openly cancelled and people wouldn't feel as bad about doing so. The important part is that a new project would probably soon follow. And the more projects someone _starts_, the better they learn about how to _manage_ one intuitively.
- Some people just wanna post their fanfics and get bored after a month and that's fine too.
- I reiterate that this absolutely requires positive interaction between veterans and newcomers. This should go without saying for all forums here but especially in this concept it would be heartbreaking to see a post worded in a way in which I could see a 10 year old genuinely give up smbx forever because of a poorly worded first response.

In order to continue welcoming new people, new people need to feel like what they want to do is possible here, and that other people want them to improve and stick around. Currently I don't feel like the setup facilitates that, and more restrictions would only make the situation worse I feel.

E: Further encouragement could be provided by monthly/seasonal highlights highlighting the most exciting concepts currently in the projects forum. This kind of thing sounds like something that'd be right at home in the once-existing forum newsletter (which with a discussed influx in contests and the ongoing level of the month scene would certainly have enough material to come back. I'll make a separate post about that.).

[aero]

- I think most people posting project threads are not ready to get into the nitty-gritty of project management, and failed projects on the road are a part of the natural progression. People don't know their limits without having tested them. I cancelled a good dozen episodes myself once I reached my own.

...

- More projects would be openly cancelled and people wouldn't feel as bad about doing so. The important part is that a new project would probably soon follow. And the more projects someone _starts_, the better they learn about how to _manage_ one intuitively.

That's a good point. It's better than prescribing project management requirements. I also like the idea of treating projects as concepts and releasing what they have. This addresses pace, brings things more out in the open, and avoids the demo-to-demo problem you mentioned. I'll elaborate on this more later on when I get the chance.

EDIT:
After reading the newsletter post you made I think what you're describing here - if I understand it correctly - can definitely work. Opening things up and bringing the forum to a place of veterans and new members collaborating to hone their skills is an interesting idea. A newsletter can tie everything together pretty well and I'm certainly not opposed to that idea. Perhaps someone can make a new project thread at the idea stage to make it a true concept, and from there people with more or less experience can collaborate with the project author(s) and the thread/posts from it can be submitted to a team that works on the newsletter. Removing the expectation for completion would nullify a lot of the current thread requirements/their intent, and with everything being open the working in a cave/bus factor issues I presented in the OP are also addressed.

I like the idea. I'm curious about how it would work in practice though, because one downside that comes to mind is making room for frivolous projects which the first rule disallowing concept threads explicitly sets out to prevent in favor of completing real projects. If I misunderstood where your thoughts are on this please say so, I'd like to see this expanded upon.

[Emral]

No misunderstanding here. That's a solid summary of my idea. I hadn't considered "submissions" to the newsletter team but now that you mention it it definitwly makes sense.
About the frivolous projects, I think that requiring a minimum effort prior to posting the concept would be good. I think a few levels completed is a solid metric, but if we want to we can try a new thing here too: In proper game development a lot of stuff happens in the concept stage and I think it may be worth leaning into that idea, where a screenshot of a completed level could be substituted by a paragraph describing the things that happen in the level/the level is about. Topic authors could be encouraged to write their stray level ideas into the thread, doubling as proof of effort and a personal checklist of what else they wanna do in case they run out of ideas some day. A new type of response to projects this could enable is asking about and suggesting ideas for levels (while keeping the author's creative vision at top spot, of course).

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if a project ends up with 0% tangible progress in the projects subforum. I think what would be worth restricting is the spamming of project threads or the rapid hopping between threads. Something like "only up to 3 concurrent projects" and "you can only cancel one of your concurrent projects per calendar month".i just made those up on the spot so I don't know how well they'd function. Please let me know if you have a better idea.