l e t t e r

[MistakesWereMade]

So, since throughout basically the entire month ive seen like ten million things about drama and joey, i think i'll focus on the latter part, i could probably have made this into a private thing, but i didnt want to risk joey just saying "k", so i'll leave this right heRE AND NOW:

The first point i'm going to cover is the rules that are probably going to get this thread locked, let's look at them first:

Refrain from creating topics dedicated to personal concerns about particular users, groups, specific staff members or the staff in general, and the community.
Refrain from creating topics discussing staff actions, and moderation.
Avoid posting in threads about the behavior of fellow members and how they act.
Do not contribute to chain responses against particular users, and report them when necessary while trying to avoid conflict.
Make topics follow the forum description of "what would you like to see," rather than "what is bad and needs to be changed."

So, most of these rules were created after drama shitstorms, and they were created to avoid them, which is partly fine, but now all of these have added up, and basically almost the entire ruleset is screaming:

"please don't point out mistakes by the staff"

Now, the staff team right now is mostly functional, i haven't seen any of them do dumb shit. With the exception being, of course, Joey.

The main issues i have with joey is that He is really not fit to manage the community, as a forum manager he might be fine an dandy, but he's extremely awful at managing the userbase, half the time he makes them more uncomfortable with shit rather than improve it.

Here are some examples:

Let's start with a somewhat minor thing, but it's also an example of how he manages some shit:

In the mafia forum, everything was fine and dandy, people (with the gamemasters) created a way to get substitutes for people that left the current games, in order to specify, it consisted in: after the signup process was finished, the signup thread for the current mafia game would be used for getting substitutes.

everyone used that for like 10 games, then joey LITERALLY OUT OF NOWHERE comes in and does this:

http://www.smbxgame.com/forums/v ... 08#p120908

In the following pages, people almost unanimously start arguing against that descision, a lot of people were like "that's dumb let's keep the old system", almost everyone was against that shit, but, joey's response was always "hey lets see how it works ok", meaning, even though 90% of the people including what could be qualified as that subforum's moderators didn't want the randomly added rule, joey didn't change his mind at all, and just maintained the rule.

Let's look at another example, something recent and relevant:

http://www.smbxgame.com/forums/v ... =48&t=9824

Ignoring all the dumb shit that happened previous to the creation of this thread, let's check out the poll results, it seems /twice the people that voted for the other options/ wanted the 100 page locking to not be a thing, so, instead of appealing to the majority (by having to do LITERALLY NOTHING), joey's response was this:

We had uproar over this situation because a small party of users chose to overreact to it. I'm going to clear things up and then close this thread because I don't think any more discussion would benefit anything.

This is not a rule. You can't be punished for not following it because there's nothing to "follow". It just happens. It's something we do here, and no, I didn't make it up. I like the practice of locking threads once they reach 100 pages because I believe that threads longer than that are too long. I use the analogy of a book in this situation - if a topic is a book, I would much rather have it divided into chapters than sitting out as one giant book. Like I said earlier, discussion can flow just fine between topics (much like the story can flow between chapters).

The archival (moving of the locked threads to a designated forum) of topics that reach 100 pages is a different issue - we do that so that the topics don't get lost in the sea of old topics located in each forum. If a topic has previous versions (older topics that had reached 100 pages) you can now find them all in one forum instead of trying to dig through a normal forum to find them.

Hope this clears things up. Aside from using more links to be able to navigate to and from previous topics, this isn't changing.

This also portrays half the shit that's wrong with joey's way of handling things, the "i like it this way so let's do this" mindset. All joey had to do was say "ok this is removed" and then do literally nothing, but he sticked to something because he "wanted it like that", even though the majority of the votes on an official poll were against it.

And now, the most recent example, the current contest.

It's a neat idea and everything, but it did an extremely poor job at getting everyone hyped, mainly this:

I don't recall saying that.

Also, we don't need tons of posts in this thread saying "I'm in" or "I'll join". If you're going to join, send me a level before the deadline.

This seems like something minor, but comparing it to the other contests held by valtteri (who is really fucking good at getting people hyped i'll give him that), it ends up looking like a lazy thing to do. And this actually hurts the contest, because, since there isn't ten million pages with people posting "i'm in", people think that nobody is going to join, disencouraging them to participate, ending up in a whopping 12 participants.

This isn't the only thing that's wrong with the current contest, from what i've talked to with judges, joey didn't give them any judging guidelines, one of them told me that "Joey pretty much said he doesnt care as long as we make good points in our review", which is partly fine, but then it's going to be a fucking mess to compare the reviews of some judges, considering they might have used different criteria.

This is just me mentioning some prime examples of joey's way of handling things, i can talk about other shit he's done, such as his actions during the whole "demote kley" shitstorm.

Conclusion; Joey, you really need to push away your "i like this" handling of shit, and just listen to what the community has to say. if nobody likes half the shit you do, the community isn't going to be pleased, considering you're the head of the fucking forum. You wouldn't have to "put up" with half these shitstorms if you didn't randomly change something because you felt like it, it doesn't cost you more than 1 hour to change almost all these things, so you can't give us the "im busy" excuse (you also can't give us that shit because a lot of other people who have been in power have done really cool shit while also being busy as fuck).

TL;DR: Joey, if you really don't care about the community, put someone else above you, someone who actually gets the community hyped and happy, rather than just saying "omg all of you fucking bitch about everything", and even if you don't want to do that, all you have to do is just listen to the community, the thing this forum exists for.

I know this thread is going to get locked because it's either against the subforum rules or because a lot of people are gonna go "this cOMMUNITY BITCHES TOO MUCH ABOUT THE STaff", in the case it gets locked, it's just going to prove that you don't want to listen to any more of this shit, and that you're just going to ignore it. I realized that i didn't put emphasis on the community's bitchests (because i just started one), but the main focus of this thread was joey, one of the main reasons this place is going to shit.

[sleepy]

If I may chip in, I'd like to add this:

Joey should listen to all of the userbase, not just the people he likes. I've noticed a lot that I'm utterly ignored by him, through PMs, public, any sort of communication. He also doesn't take some user's opinions into consideration just because he doesn't like them or they aren't serious all the time. This is ridiculous, and biased. An admin should listen to everyone's opinion, whether he likes them or not.

Also, most of this drama could be avoided if people weren't so fucking sensitive.

[Shadow Yoshi]

I don't ignore you, nor do I only listen to people I like. You haven't tried to PM or query me in a while and you sometimes ping me on the IRC when I'm not around. If you need to actually contact me about something, drop me a memo or even just a query (or, of course, a forum PM).

I agree on the part about sensitivity.

Expect a post from me soon.

[aero]

An admin should listen to everyone's opinion, whether he likes them or not.

Be thankful you at least get to offer an opinion. On better forums, there isn't input from users and people are banned for not getting along with the forum administration.

Nien is going to be managing this thread, but as soon as things get out of hand people will be dealt with.

[MistakesWereMade]

As ghosthawk said, i'd like to ask you guys to refrain from calling others out, if you disagree with someone, try to avoid arguing against them in public, this thread will mainly be used to reach some descisions regarding the issues at hand.

I could ask you to argue in a civil manner, but let's be serious nobody ever does that shit.

[HeroOfRhyme]

What about tackling the issue with staff? I sent a PM to Valtteri and Pseudo, and they'll talk to Joey about it I'm sure, however the main point to the message I sent is that with Ignoritus quitting, and TNT is resigning..there are only 4 active moderators.

I think this is an issue that should be worked out and a replacement should be hired. 5 moderators should do, but 4 wont, considering the online times. I was on last night when some stuff was going on and I could only click the report button and tell Squishy Rex when he came on. I think it would be best to hire someone who can cover the night, while other staff cover regularly. If there can be a way to have one staff member online all the time, or at least most of the time.. it might benefit for the better.

It should at least be discussed because a lot of people agree with me, current moderators included. Also, if I had to suggest someone, or two people for the job during the nights as I suggested above, I would choose Marina, or myself, or both of us together. We're both experienced with it and are around at suggested times.

Remember; this is just a suggestion. I do know that the admins have final say of any staff changes and stuff, which is why I contacted them to begin with. However I feel this is a current issue that should be addressed in public.

[mechamind]

On better many forums, there isn't input from users and people are banned for not getting along with the forum administration.

I feel weird doing it with that particular comment, but I have a feeling many of the forums where users do get suspended over this are actually worse.

What I would have thought on a "better" forum is that the comments wouldn't do any actual harm anyway while the moderators would have just assumed there's no point. The most that would happen is that the community immediately laughs off the attack or just points out why the staff member is indeed valuable, and the user who did question the administration would do something else immediately after to get banned.

[Shadow Yoshi]

Any discussion on who should/shouldn't be on the staff team needs to stop. If we need more staff members, we'll hire them.

[HeroOfRhyme]

Any discussion on who should/shouldn't be on the staff team needs to stop. If we need more staff members, we'll hire them.

This is the kind of thing people are talking about. You shut it down before you allow anyone to talk about it. It's not like we can do anything about it so how does discussion on the matter hurt it any? It would be beneficial if we could discuss it as a community instead of being so strict on it. I'm very well aware that the admins get the final decision on it, but why dont you at least let people discuss it? I would rather have a mod that was chosen by the whole userbase than someone who we all don't like as staff. Of course that would cause more drama and we would fight it, go against it and then come to grips with it after a bunch of unneeded shit.

That's just how I see it.

[Zeldamaster12]

He shut down that conversation because we don't need anymore mods at this time. Who cares if we only have 4 active mods? As long as they're actively getting the job done, it shouldn't matter.

[MistakesWereMade]

Keep in mind that this thread isn't to discuss more changes in the functioning of shit, it's just to reach an agreement with joey on stuff.

[Shadow Yoshi]

While I can sometimes tolerate "we might need some more staff members and here's why", I will absolutely not allow suggestions for who specifically should have the position. It's just one of those things that we'll ask the public about if we want everyone's opinion. Otherwise, don't bother bringing it up.

Also we are never going to hire people specifically so they can be on at the night hours.

[HeroOfRhyme]

He shut down that conversation because we don't need anymore mods at this time. Who cares if we only have 4 active mods? As long as they're actively getting the job done, it shouldn't matter.

But they really arent. It's a hassle waiting hours for a mod when someone decides to spam attack or rereg. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about, with a mod on at night to keep watch of stuff it would help a lot. You obviously need another active mod if this starts to keep up at night.

Keep in mind that this thread isn't to discuss more changes in the functioning of shit, it's just to reach an agreement with joey on stuff.

That's what I'm attempting to do, however it doesnt look like it's going too well. My approach may be wrong but I'm still trying to be civil in my discussion.

In reply to the ninja post;

While I can sometimes tolerate "we might need some more staff members and here's why", I will absolutely not allow suggestions for who specifically should have the position. It's just one of those things that we'll ask the public about if we want everyone's opinion. Otherwise, don't bother bringing it up.

Also we are never going to hire people specifically so they can be on at the night hours.

You should try it. Like I said, there are things that happen at night when there is no staff online and then what? You're fucked if no one is around to help until hours later when they'd already have finished attacking and anything could happen then.

Also, I appreciate that you accept that, and I wasnt going to mention any names to begin with as I kind of figured you'd say that..and I'm just putting it out there. I understand.

Emral also stated on the IRC about another poll about it, but I doubt that would happen given what happened last year and the circumstances right now..but like I also replied with, I think it would go better this time around if you were every to try that again.

[mechamind]

Like I said, there are things that happen at night when there is no staff online and then what? You're fucked if no one is around to help until hours later when they'd already have finished attacking and anything could happen then.

Well, no one said staff members couldn't be around during late night hours. Unless, against all odds, there's something I missed.

[Shadow Yoshi]

But they really arent. It's a hassle waiting hours for a mod when someone decides to spam attack or rereg. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about, with a mod on at night to keep watch of stuff it would help a lot. You obviously need another active mod if this starts to keep up at night.

Is it really that big of a deal when somebody registers a duplicate account, of all things? Dupes and spam attacks don't happen as often as you're making it seem. Just report/ignore it and move on.

[MistakesWereMade]

Keep in mind that this thread isn't to discuss more changes in the functioning of shit, it's just to reach an agreement with joey on stuff.

That's what I'm attempting to do, however it doesnt look like it's going too well. My approach may be wrong but I'm still trying to be civil in my discussion.

You're doing the exact opposite of what i said, this thread isn't for suggesting on who should be staff and for what, at least not yet.

[HeroOfRhyme]

I'm not trying to make it seem often at all. I'm just saying normally when I'm around at night a lot of dumb shit happens. That's how it seems like it happens a lot more than it does.

I'm just saying, it's really a pain having to wait so long for something that could be taken care of at that moment.

Nien; You said "stuff", that's very vague as I'm trying to reach and agreement on stuff.


However I think the discussion is reached a conclusion. My suggestion was made and he did state his reasons as I stated mine. As far as I'm concerned this topic can be about anything now.

[aero]

On better many forums, there isn't input from users and people are banned for not getting along with the forum administration.

I feel weird doing it with that particular comment, but I have a feeling many of the forums where users do get suspended over this are actually worse.

I've never seen a forum where people are happy and input is allowed. Where people talk about an interest everything is fine, when people talk about a forum it goes to hell.

The rest of this isn't directed solely at you, but it has somewhat to do with your post but very loosely.

This is an SMBX forum that's split between actual SMBX stuff and social forums, and people are getting onto Joey about not being into SMBX when nobody else does it to anyone else who doesn't care much for the game. Ah, but that's because he's an admin and is supposed to care for some reason. I only mention this because this is what happens when input is allowed on admins. You're going to get people for and against them. The people against them are the ignored who need to be listened to, and the people with them are bootlickers who agree with Joey 110% of the time and that's how it follows. I've been called that myself just for being a mod here, and it happened again with 8bit and Deoxys' Skype witch hunt for "Joey loyalists" where I was kicked out of groups just for being a mod and therefor a loyalist. Only having SMBX discussion would cut this forum in half, because it's split between SMBX forums and social forums. Making this place a social forum will drive away SMBX people and again cripple the community because tons of people still have interest in it but keep to the SMBX category and don't interact with the social one and vice versa. With a split user base, input is not possible without either serious restrictions to prevent problems like the new rules, or outright removing the venue for discussion. In all honesty if the rules don't hold up, the next thing I would support is outright getting rid of this forum and doubling-down on people who try to make a discussion out of something that isn't what the forums are about.

Apex has already shown ITT exactly why input about the forums and administration won't work. There are matters that users simply should not be privy too, and that's that. I've said countless times, that if people don't like something about the staff running things they can leave. But nobody leaves, they keep coming back. Nobody here is interested in making the site better, they just want things to be run the way they would have it if they were staff members. That's why you see people like 8bit still complaining after they get what they want, they only want to be in control and will never be satisfied with changes made and responses made because they will never be in control. The staff team has been completely changed, and has more active members just what people wanted right? Kley is no longer staff, nor m4sterbr0s, 3 new active users are now mods and nobody is happy with the staff team still. Nobody will be happy unless there's a staff member on when they're on and can take care of what they see needs to be taken care of, and wouldn't you know it the best person for that is them. There is no satisfying these people, so I've started becoming more direct and swift with shutting down discussion. I flat out would not care anymore if Joey was actually was what everyone says he is. It is his forum, he pays for the domain, he and the admins select the staff, and he's kept things afloat for two years now. He doesn't get credit for it though. Nobody does anything but bitch when they come up with a new problem to have. Take for instance the 100 pages thing. Nobody gave a damn until Deoxy's little shit fit, and everybody knows how that went. This is an especially good example of what I was saying earlier about people never being satisfied until they're in control and not really caring for the well-being of this forum and the community. What did people see Deoxys do? He went into the shadows and sent out PMs in secret to "steal" members from Joey's "oppression" and brought them over to what he thought would be a new haven for the community where he would have power. He was only interested in a fight against Joey and not for the community, and that is clear from his posts. Take for instance the major difference between his thread about the 100 page thing, and then my thread. His thread consisted of nothing but whining and complaining because he didn't get his way, and then attacks came in earning a lock. My thread on the other hand put it to a vote, had a reasonable discussion, and backed up the notion that people are against 100 page locks with actual numbers rather than rhetoric about "a lot of supporters" and ironically talking about more democracy. You don't see his whining arguments showing up in people's signatures, you see my poll results. This is why I made the rules to prevent this sort of behavior, and look what happened when I made an exception to let people vent. The new rules are not for us to cover our asses as staff members, they're to prevent a lot of the toxic garbage that comes out of the members here who feel entitled to have their opinion heard and respected. If people made threads like I did with polls to back up ideas, another idea that I pitched to the rest of the staff about making a requirement here, and focused on ideas that add to the site to make it better I would change my mind completely about input here. The last rule comes straight from this forum's description, and yet in the - OP issue is taken with it.

TL;DR the community is split and nobody is satisfied so user input is not only useless but detrimental to the community, and the new rules are necessary.

[Shadow Yoshi]

I'm going to close the thread here. I'm going to make an announcement at some point about the state of the community and what all of us can do to improve it.

http://www.smbxgame.com/forums/v ... 58#p144543